'Traditional masculinity' officially labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Association



I mean, in some ways I actually think they’re right. In the same way I also think a lot of the princess obsession and traditional femininity (Gotta paint your face on like a clown or people won’t think you’re attractive!) is pretty harmful. You wind up with girls that are next to useless and boys raised on glorified violence that wind up shooting up a school or committing suicide at high rates and nobody can figure out why. I’m not saying everyone needs to aspire to androgynous standards but there’s some merit to it. That said, growing up very small town with a bunch of rednecks, family of all boys, guns constantly laying around, frequent fights etc probably put my upbringing experience extremely far on one end of the spectrum.

The thing with these kinds of movements is that they very often go overboard. This is a prime example of that. While it is true some aspects of men’s upbringing might force men to act in a certain way, labeling traditional masculinity as harmful is ridiculous. Just another step in the pussification of a generation.

I’m raising my boy to be the most masculine he can be. The more non-masculine men out there, the less competition for him.

haha quite funny. I wanted to write a diary to express my feelings then stopped cuz It’s ***. It’s quite interesting they mention homophobia, I sometimes use the slur word with friends when they don’t conform to societal standards of what it means to be a man.

Also I remember telling this vampire bdsm chick that I like gays because they reduce competition. Har har har.

I dunno. Nowadays, model for successful man is like Mark Zuckerberg, not Burt Reynolds. Oh man, he’s so into IT. Got so many RSRs, so hot.

Jordan Peterson was having a COW over this on twitter. Lol!

I remember a year or so ago I would come on here and argue in favor of androgyny and was foolish enough to ague against biologically based behavioral differences in male and female. Granted, the gender topic here in this article is not exactly male vs. female, but the health of the male gender role.

Anyway…through Peterson and similar characters, my incorrect notion that pointing out biological specifics associated with gender is sexist has been corrected. I get it and I’m on board.

With all due respect to this movement towards respecting biological truths, the conversation I want to see next is this: when is it beneficial to override our biological protocol? Sure, Peterson and the others have it right to shout about how biological truth is not *allowed* to be discussed. However, I think it is important we don’t get dogmatic about it. Humans are biologically programed to be racists after all. Its a good thing culture has picked up where biology left off. I don’t see why gender has potential to go this way too. I’m no SJW but I do think leaving flexibility for culture to do its thing should be respected.

That said… I don’t mean to imply that I endorse this new guidline!

The other night I was listened to a TED talk in which some ex-gangbanger talked about how “toxic masculinity” caused him to make bad decisions in life because he didn’t want to look like a pussy. I can see some truth in that. But then he went on to say that even checking out (no cat calling, whistling, just checking out) women on the street is a sign of toxic masculine behavior. And the TED crowd was clapping and nodding like yeah, that’s right. WTF? How is anyone ever going to find a partner if even checking out potential partners is frowned upon? This crazy talk reminds of a opinion piece I read during the hayday of the #metoo movement in which the writer claimed that asking women out on a date should be considered sexual harassment. What a time to be alive.

So, I look at it this way. Just because some people want to say that masculinity is toxic and unhealthy won’t change the fact that women love sex just as much as men do. And, the more biologically alpha male will always attract women no matter what our society wants to say is right or wrong about it.

seriously, relax. The more our culture wants to promote being a weak sack of sh1t just makes it easier for the rest of us to stand out in the crowd. Again, women like having sex just as much as men do. Don’t forget this.

There’s all sorts of arguments being made here about a broad topic and a lot of them are involving toxic straw men. There is such a thing as toxic masculinity. With some amusing irony most of the people standing up for it on this forum are too effeminate and urbanized to even see that. Any time you have an issue some group of people will run too far with it like TED talk guy. I’m not calling for androgyny (which I specifically stated) but you seem to have one group of people saying this wide range of behavior is invariably bad and should be eliminated without any reflection and another that think this wide topic should be universally celebrated without any reflection. It should be pretty clear to anyone that both these opposing views are stupid and under-thought as everything should questioned. This is particularly true for cultural norms that shift over time and across geographies. Sure masculinity is a biological thing in many cases and I’m not arguing for that to be eliminated but how it manifests itself culturally is worth considering. The analogy between having a sex drive or checking people out as “masculine” is a false parallel because as has been pointed out, that is not a trait that is exclusive to either gender. By example when I was younger and traveling in Latin America you’d have women cat calling you up and down the street, grabbing your _a_ss, etc, just culturally different. So, realizing that the embodiment of these things can change across time and region and are largely cultural, it’s always worth a second look. The experience of masculinity can vary from strength and integrity characteristics in some cultures to rape, violence and domestic violence in others. So clearly a scale.

My point was mainly directed at the fighting, glorified violence and blockheadedness that I’ve seen a lot of and in some ways was definitely part of growing up. Then there are a litany of other things ranging from domestic violence to sexual aggression to homophobia. To my earlier points, you have people on here equating the latter two to cat calling or using a term around friends, neither is necessarily good, but it’s good to see that in some ways its been eradicated because that’s not how things used to be (and in some places still are) in their more extreme form. It doesn’t take a genius to look at crime, violence, suicide and sexual assault statistics by gender and realize that there are aspects of masculinity that are toxic and poorly addressed. Some of this plays out on a macro level with the glorification of the US military industrial war machine.

Alternately, there are many forms of toxic femininity too that are a mess to avoid if you’re raising daughters. You shouldn’t deny biological differences, but you can avoid falling into the GI wife-beating Joe and useless Barbie trap.

So, in summary, big topic, probably deserves more than blanket statements.

Also LMAO at bankers being masculine.

Nothing to see here folks, just healthy behavior!

In the United States, men are much more likely to be incarcerated than women. More than 9 times as many men (5,037,000) as women (581,000) had ever at one time been incarcerated in a State or Federal prison at year end 2001.[48]

In 2014, more than 73% of those arrested in the US were males.[49] Men accounted for 80.4 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 62.9 percent of those arrested for property crime.[49] In 2011, the United States Department of Justice compiled homicide statistics in the United States between 1980 and 2008.[50] That study showed the following:

  • Males were convicted of the vast majority of homicides in the United States, representing 89.5% of the total number of offenders.[50]
  • Young adult black males had the highest homicide conviction rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[50]
  • White females of all ages had the lowest conviction rates of any racial or age groups.[50]
  • However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% of the people that were convicted were males.[50]
  • Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[50]
  • Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[50]
  • Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[50]
  • Males were most likely to be victims of drug-related (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[50]

2011 arrest data from the FBI:[51]

  • Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape[51]
  • Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery[51]
  • Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[51]
  • Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[51]
  • Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[51]
  • Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[51]
  • Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[51]
  • Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[51]

And don’t forget that men are 70% of suicides and virtually every mass shooter.

Good first post but this comparison doesn’t make sense. Comparing violence statistics of men and women is like comparing apples and oranges. There’s no point in it. If one group is wired with testosterone and the other group is not, it is obvious that the violence statistics will differ significantly. Nothing to do with toxic behavior or the surrounding society’s view on the genders, just basic biology.

I completely disagree with that. For starters, the conversation was ridiculing the outrageous suggestion that aspects of masculine behavior could be considered a mental health risk or “toxic”. Clearly these crime statistics indicate there are obviously aspects of masculine behavior that are extremely damaging to society. Again not arguing about there not being biological differences, but back to my point about the scale of outcomes ranging from “it’s great and we shouldn’t look at it” to “it’s terrible and needs abolished”, there’s clearly a middle ground that examines behavior and cultural norms. So unless people are looking at the violence, crime and suicide statistics and saying “this is a good level, this is healthy” then we should be looking to address the behavior. From then it should be clear from any decision to address the behavior that the starting point is the “toxic” aspects of masculinity.

Would it be safe to say, any “masculine” behavior that breaks the law is toxic and those that don’t, aren’t? Or should the middle ground be somewhere before then?

I mean I’m not trying to take a firm stance on what is good or bad, my central point is its not a ridiculous topic for people to talk or at least think about. But I mean, that seems pretty safe as a starting point. I think people should think about the sort of things that we’re either teaching or failing to teach that would prevent that spillover into illegal activity. Raising guys to be dudes, liking hunting, fishing, boxing, fast cars 'miring asthetics or whatever it is you think are guy things but also having integrity and slow to violence. Who knows.

I’m content to let other people hash that out for themselves, but it’s fair to look at those illegal spillover effects and have a conversation. During the whole BLM thing people (including me) were pointing out violent crime statistics and saying “hey there seems to be a cultural issue here too that should be talked about” and you get a lot of defensive backlash from often liberals that loosely translates into “I’m offended.” So it’s fair that when you can look at those statistics by gender and get similar results people who raised those same type of arguments should be open to some reflection on gender cultural issues. Again, it’s not all one way, I have a myriad of critiques of how we raise girls here too. It’s somewhat ironic that Jordan Peterson who claims to be the master of unbiased, reason based gender arguments is offended at the concept of discussing this despite the sea of crime data.

^Lol, how did that get a downvote I thought that was a pretty neutral take on things, haha

lol not me, upvoted you to get you even.

Yooooo… this shouldn’t be this long of a conversation.

Lol don’t you hate that moment when you don’t really want to fight, but everybody is watching and you’re thinking if I don’t, I’m going to get punked! As adults it’s pointless to us. But I think as a young kid it is important to not be known as a pussy as that will pretty much shape how people treat you and how your personality will take shape.

The left, which largely controls the narrative in most college social sciences and studies like this believe that oppression can only come from people in power. In the APA pub I linked it specifically cites “white males, middle to upper class, and christian.” Right there you know what you are dealing with. Its not about statistics unless the statistics fit the narrative they are spinning. So while they would be glad to point out that males as a whole commit more violent crime than women you won’t see any analysis on the predominant races or income levels committing the crimes. If there is talk about race or social status the root problem is the oppressive white patriarchal system.

Another topic raised in the publication is that It is abusive to not recognize a transgender as the sex they are claiming to be. How many of you are cool with a full grown man using the same restroom as your daughters? Should teachers be compelled to call a student Jimmy one day and Susie the next depending on the state of his/her gender fluid expression? There seems to be some debate to be had still on these topics but the psychologists have already pathologized this as toxic male behavior. It is worth noting that nearly every study referenced in this publication is after 2012.