Violence is Coming

Water Cooler
#101

While I do feel for your son (and I hope you’ve been able to find something efficacious), your reasonable assurance that you know more about it than I do (or your assessment of my “danger” to others) is a matter of your opinion (especially since we’ve never met). When I was speaking of few, limited circumstances, epilepsy was one was referring to but not mentioning (I specified AIDS and cancer patients). Again, anecdotal evidence is evidence, but it’s not ranked well in the scientific community (which gets to the problem you stated, we can’t get RCTs without changing the schedule of the drug). I don’t want to continue the discussion about it necessarily either, because I don’t want to come across in anyway that I don’t support, respect, or feel for what you and your family go through to help your son-- I’m sorry if it came across that way at any point, that wasn’t my intention.

If you reread what I wrote, you’ll see that I said essentially the same thing as you are (you can look at the research that suggests marijuana can increase the risk of seizures, but when partialled out, CBD seems to lower the risk while THC may increase the risk). I agree that RCTs should be possible, which necessitates the removal or working around (legally) the Schedule I nature of the drug. I haven’t denied any benefits (all I’ve been saying is the general body of evidence is pretty weak, especially in comparison to what the lay people suggest).

Again this goes back to where I was discussing more research is needed. Neurology is one specialty in medicine, but I agree that neurologists tend to think the evidence looks promising (which again is far from proven- no one with a decent background in science or statistics will easily claim causality from non-randomized experiments, even several of them). There are a few other specialties that are as optimistic as neurology, but overall, the jury is still out, as evidenced by the larger medical bodies and institutions not supporting it yet (but they think the time is coming for wider medical approval and they want research).

Thanks for clarifying, I can see your stance better (I’m not really affiliated with with a particular political ideology since I have given much thought to where I would fit). I would disagree strongly with antibiotics (and more broadly, antimicrobials) at the very least. Resistance to medications builds very quickly and part of the problem is misuse (improper prescribing, people taking antibiotics they never finished) or nonadherence (people don’t take a full course), and the bugs evolve very quickly. I don’t think it’s wise to give people unfettered access to things that can have serious consequences when used inappropriately.

Anyway, thanks for engaging the discussion. I do apologize for the thread diversion, my original intention was just to show that, due to lack of solid evidence, there are well informed groups of people who disagree.

#102

Well guys, overall I believe the benefits significantly outweigh the minuscule risks to legalize it. The sad thing is people are suffering and do not have access to something that would help in the land of the free.

#103

Hear, hear.

#104

Okay-- I do think vaping should have gone through regulations. To you too, thanks for the discussion!

#105

hmmmm we’ve had a discussion that went this long involving myself, you & STL and no one was called a nazi yet. What has AF come to, Ill fix that.

STL & tickersu you are both nazis

#106

These are good points, and I don’t think anyone was disagreeing with them. The schizophrenia research I mentioned suggested that a significant increase in risk for developing schizophrenia was smoking pot at least 50 times before some age (might’ve been 18 or so), but I did temper the downside, along with the laundry list of upsides people claim, by noting that these are generally just associations and there’s not a big pile of strong evidence (over and over, we’ve said we need RCTs, and that’ll help us figure out the who, what, when, where and why).

I totally agree, too, that if something does have demonstrable benefits for certain people suffering, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t allow appropriate use (which I think many states are coming around to).

#107

Yeah there are neurodevelopmental risks.

#108

You’re literally Hitler.

And, ACE & tickersu, pot does make some people schizo, but it’s widely believed the person would have to be predisposed to schizophrenia first. In other words, pot doesn’t make a mentally healthy person go schizo. It may, however, cause someone with underlying schizo-like problems, go full bonkers.

So, yeah, that sucks.

#109

Yeah exactly. Which is a very small % of the population.

#110

Small price to pay for me to better enjoy Skyrim and Civilization VI.

#111

I have also seen the studies about pot causing harm pre certain ages. Saw one recently showing 14, seen 17 before, seen 21 before and I dont disagree with any of them. Id imagine any substance a developing person uses can greatly effect their future (which is why the amount of adderall being prescribed seems egregious to me) and legalization might actually help in that instance as well. It was harder for me to get booze as a kid than it was to get bud. More people buying from shops = less dealers = harder for kids to get some. Not that it matters they will just go smoke that synthetic crap thats 100000x worse or find some other cool drugs that ill most certainly try

#112

while it may seem like AJ is taking his cues from me, I assure you he’s not (i don’t think, unless he’s a lurker here). anyway, escalation is coming:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BghC7JHYpI]

#113

lmfaoooooooooo its like watching a person that believes the shit they shovel. Good stuff turd, hes way intense. Im sure this gets you wing nuts all riled up and ready for the civil war! Gotta create that boogeyman! We used to use Russia but not that Comrade Trump is in town we’ll turn that false fear internally. Its certainly better for Russia/China if we spend time fighting ourselves.

#114

When the civil war breaks out, I think it would be a good idea for us all to meet up at BS’s family’s farm.

#115

Right, this is why I use the word “link” and “associations”. You can’t make much of a causal inference without randomized studies (some people argue you can, but many of the prominent statisticians, such as R.A. Fisher, demonstrate why you can’t. So, I’d caution saying it “does make” or “doesn’t make” someone go bonkers, but the evidence can suggest it without knowing certain confounders that might actually show non-causality. There’s similar theories about “unlocking” schizophrenics with other drugs as well, but they all come back to the same idea. We don’t know if the people were prone to schizophrenia and had other attributes that made them more likely to smoke pot or do drugs, and then doing the drugs actually “unlocked” them vs. another mechanism, for example. I think we’re all saying the same thing, more or less (although I stress the causality part, especially because modern science is having issues grasping that concept, hence we have (several) big issues with research lately).

#116

This whole discussion we had actually made me think more about the libertarian argument about all drugs being legalized but of course with penalties for negligent behavior. I like hearing other points of view, discussing and asking questions, so this got the gears turning. It makes you wonder how much different things would be and in what way if things were legalized, commercially produced with standards, and sold//taxed in shops with age limits. The problem I see is that certain substances are so potent with high efficacy that there is no learning curve similar to alcohol. Although, standardization through regulated business would make it less likely people get laced stuff when they don’t want it (like the people trying to make moonshine and having a bunch of sequelae from methanol toxicity). Overall, I still feel I’d take a bit of a different approach than you guys (some things legalized, and others not), but it’s interesting to explore that scenario.

#117

Hey, everyone has different opinions on this stuff mine certainly isnt as libertarian as TF/STL (who im sure dont hold the exact same viewpoints on everything either) and I am not sure if I had a magic wand if id make all drugs legal either.

The crazy stuff I have seen that makes me think are the studies in the Netherlands/Canada (i believe canada) have tried where a heroin addict can go to a specific place and with a prescription that states they are an addict they will receive a clean needle and supervised place to do the heroin (some places even provide medical grade heroin for free) and the cost savings have apparently been achieved through crime reduction for addicts being able to have a steady supply & no longer needing to steal to support it. That in turn has been able to let them keep jobs and continue paying taxes and such. They are also provided addiction counseling services at these centers as the majority of the time drug abuse is typically rooted in mental health issues. Im not necessarily saying thats the way the US should go, but it certainly is a model to keep our eyes on. If you can achieve savings, reduce crime, and improve care its certainly interesting and even though we might be “morally” opposed its hard to argue the benefits.

#118

Yeah, they had a forum on that at BU recently, my girlfriend works there and attended and said it was really interesting.

https://www.bu.edu/sph/2016/02/26/community-discusses-a-safe-space-for-opioid-use/

I can’t imagine anything like this ever taking hold in the US. But at least it’s starting to be discussed.

#119

Interesting thanks for the article. Definitely an interesting option that while not traditional may save lives. With the somewhat recent jump to affluent people getting hooked on pain killers then dope id imagine youll see more and more support for money to be thrown at addiction issues. When its your kid addicted people tend to understand it a bit more than when its happening to people that you have nothing in common with.

#120

WAKE UP

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bannon-film-outline-warned-us-could-turn-into-islamic-states-of-america/2017/02/03/f73832f4-e8be-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?utm_term=.5ba39f396c68