Alucard Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > BS, it seems like you got all your education from > hollywood movies. Now, I understand America has > saved the word numerous times (and not only from > aliens) and we’re all very grateful for that but > some of the stuff you say is idiotic. Fine, which of my statements is fallacious? Do you want to correct my logic? Or do you just want to cry a little because deep down you know I’m right.
Hell, even the Chinese finger trap was invented by Joseph D’Antoni of Queens NY
Actually Black Swan, if you look at a lot of the patents and inventions coming out of Universities and other Institutions in the US, you will find a disproportionate number of Chinese and Indians behind them. Also a lot of technological innovations and patents are coming from that part of the world nowadays. So I wouldn’t say its a cultural issue in the sense of parenting and values. Though I agree with you that the Western educational system (until now at least) is better as it does imbibe a lot of creativity and free thinking, with far less emphasis on rote learning. The asian countries are adopting this style of teaching nowadays. Also you have to take into account that while US was a free country, these Asian countries were first under imperial control followed by communism in the case of China.
“If their culture is so superior how come roughly 100% of all major technological inventions and advancements over the past ~150 years have come out of the west? Also, why is their per capita GDP roughly none existent?” I referring to the above question. Do you think the article implies that their culture is superior to the western culture? “…Roughly 100% of ALL major tech inventions and advancements over the past 150 years have come out of the west.” Wow, just wow. By “the west” of course you mean the States? There is no point of arguing here because you and I both know what country you’re referring to when you say “the West” and you’ll of course start backpeddaling and say that you meant all the area west of China ( central asia, eastern, western europe, the Americas). No way for me to win here unless I bring Japan into this, it’s east of China right? The bottom line is this is like comparing apples to oranges. The cultures are different, the competition is different, the quality of life is different, different political regimes - all this affects their ability to invent, innovate and thus their per capita GDP. We can’t just take the educational system and say, well just because they teach better math there they should be able to ___. That would be wrong.
No Marcus, I do not. I asked for the flaw of my logic. My logic was that the nation was the sum of the individuals, this includes government. So if they are penalized via development for being communist or for being imperially dominated, then politically they have been unsuccessful and it must be tied to the mothers (per the article). Secondly, as quoted earlier from the article, western mothers of Chinese heritage often have diluted parenting skills per the author. So western raised individuals who are more successful over here than in China defy much of her reasoning. Anyhow, assuming Chinese culture and thus parenting hasn’t changed its values significantly recently then the question is still computer, cell phone, car, airplane, industrialization, microwave, you name it, vs: ? And the reason I was arguing was that in pounding their children into a mold the crazy parenting described in the article destroys creativity and free thinking and also molds people to accept orders from crazed authoritarians (political problems they have). Now all this assumes the article is correct, which I don’t think it is. I just wanted to point out obvious flaws in her assumption that all success must come from such “great” parenting.
Alucard Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “If their culture is so superior how come roughly > 100% of all major technological inventions and > advancements over the past ~150 years have come > out of the west? Also, why is their per capita GDP > roughly none existent?” > > I referring to the above question. Do you think > the article implies that their culture is superior > to the western culture? “…Roughly 100% of ALL > major tech inventions and advancements over the > past 150 years have come out of the west.” Wow, > just wow. By “the west” of course you mean the > States? Bull crap. If I wanted to say US I would have. Don’t change my exact words then argue with those words.
Ok, let’s take a step back and chill. First of all, we need to distinguish between individual achievement and government policy. On a government level, the Chinese have clearly fallen behind the west in fostering an environment that promotes innovation and social mobility. The Chinese had the “closed door” policy from the 1600s to the 1900s, thereby isolating themselves from the rest of the world and falling behind in hundreds of years of technological and social progress. They still have not caught up with the west, although they probably will at some point. On an individual level, the Chinese and other east Asians clearly have characteristics that result in great individual achievement. Harvard is 20% Asian and Stanford is 25% Asian. Compare this to the general US population, which is about 5% Asian. Asians are also the richest ethnic group in the US. This demonstrates that once you remove the Chinese from a restrictive environment (China) and put them in a rich environment (the US), they tend to do very well. (The irony is that once the Asians stay in the US for several generations, they become Americanized and their kids don’t do as well, but that’s a different story altogether.) So in conclusion, we have to distinguish between policy environment and culture when comparing Chinese people to US people. China has more hardworking people, but the US has a more advanced social environment.
Western culture of liberalism, enlightenment and questioning authority is the answer. Anyone who has read anything at all about China and their culture would probably understand the roots of this kind of upbringing. The high regard for education is linked to the consequences of not having that education in a place where wars, war lords, famines and scratching to survive in an overpopulated country for centuries was a harsh reality. Also, I suspect that some of this might be linked to the preference of male children. Perhaps there is less regard for the female child (remember Pearl Buck discovered graves of baby girls exhumed by animals; these children were murdered by their parents simply for being female). And the early Chinese settlement in CA was dog eat dog survival, as they were pitted against those who hated them. Overall, in literature at least, the view from the west is of a very brutal culture, because survival depended upon your own ability to survive. Unfortunately, it doesn’t translate to life in the west very well, at least these days.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Alucard Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > “If their culture is so superior how come > roughly > > 100% of all major technological inventions and > > advancements over the past ~150 years have come > > out of the west? Also, why is their per capita > GDP > > roughly none existent?” > > > > I referring to the above question. Do you think > > the article implies that their culture is > superior > > to the western culture? “…Roughly 100% of ALL > > major tech inventions and advancements over the > > past 150 years have come out of the west.” Wow, > > just wow. By “the west” of course you mean the > > States? > > Bull crap. If I wanted to say US I would have. > Don’t change my exact words then argue with those > words. I expected that. So really we’re comparing the amount of tech inventions to come out of China - one country vs “the West”. So any area in particular in “the West”? This aside though, I hope you understand what I was trying to say regarding the differences.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone who has read anything at all about China > and their culture would probably understand the > roots of this kind of upbringing. The high regard > for education is linked to the consequences of not > having that education in a place where wars, war > lords, famines and scratching to survive in an > overpopulated country for centuries was a harsh > reality. Actually a superficial (“anyone who has read anything…”) understanding really leads to an inaccurate answer here. The narrative is nuanced by a very long history going back to ancient China. I don’t have time to articulate it all here, but go look up Confucianism and Records of the Grand Historian for some detail. Briefly and completely in keeping with the spirit of the article, here two tenets from Confucius’ “Great Learning”: -Each and every person is capable of learning and self-cultivation regardless of social, economic or political status. This, in turn, means that success in learning is the result of the effort of the individual as opposed to an inability to learn. -One must treat education as an intricate and interrelated system where one must strive for balance. No one aspect of learning is isolated from the other and failure to cultivate a single aspect of one’s learning will lead to the failure of learning as a whole.
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Anyone who has read anything at all about China > > and their culture would probably understand the > > roots of this kind of upbringing. The high > regard > > for education is linked to the consequences of > not > > having that education in a place where wars, > war > > lords, famines and scratching to survive in an > > overpopulated country for centuries was a harsh > > reality. > > Actually a superficial (“anyone who has read > anything…”) understanding really leads to an > inaccurate answer here. The narrative is nuanced > by a very long history going back to ancient > China. I don’t have time to articulate it all > here, but go look up Confucianism and Records of > the Grand Historian for some detail. Briefly and > completely in keeping with the spirit of the > article, here two tenets from Confucius’ “Great > Learning”: > > -Each and every person is capable of learning and > self-cultivation regardless of social, economic or > political status. This, in turn, means that > success in learning is the result of the effort of > the individual as opposed to an inability to > learn. > > -One must treat education as an intricate and > interrelated system where one must strive for > balance. No one aspect of learning is isolated > from the other and failure to cultivate a single > aspect of one’s learning will lead to the failure > of learning as a whole. Would you argue that the current “get an A on the test” focus in China and the narrow focus on tangible metrics & academic schooling at the cost of intangible growth fits Confuscianism?
Anyhow, she started by saying chinese mothers raise more successful children and gave anecdotal evidence. I attempted to aggregate this into concrete statistics and felt that since country in this case represents the aggregate and per capita GDP would represent wholistic common sized success, then her argument is bull hockey. And yes, I firmly hold people accountable for the government they allow to rule them.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- And > yes, I firmly hold people accountable for the > government they allow to rule them. You’re so lost and misinformed. I feel sorry for you, I really do. What the f%ck do you know about living under the socialist regime you imbecil? You take the freedom that you have for granted. YOU hold people accountable , who the f^ck are you to hold people accountable? What you think overthrowing a socialist government or any regime at that is a simple thing? What’s wrong with you?
FYI…the author of the book says she received death threats. WTF?
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > computer, cell phone, car, airplane, industrialization, > microwave, you name it, vs: ? vs: water tourture, dog soup, tiny feet, and crazy @ss olympic openings my top 5 moms: Hillary Clinton - mom, POTUS in charge, and global, pantsuit-wearing powerhouse Clair Huxtable - classy, successful and career-oriented, she was a role model for her kids and her viewing audience. Olivia Manning - wife of Archie Manning and mother of two super bowl winning QBs Gloria Pritchett (Sofía Vergara) - possibly the only reason i watch modern family Gisele Bundchen - just wait
In any case, it seems all agree that the article is disgusting. I was near to vomit in some places. I also read the comments, with a big number of them from equally disgusted Chinese mothers. A horrible woman. I just hope her “education” methods don’t end in violence against her.
Valores Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In any case, it seems all agree that the article > is disgusting. I was near to vomit in some places. > I also read the comments, with a big number of > them from equally disgusted Chinese mothers. > A horrible woman. I just hope her “education” > methods don’t end in violence against her. Yeah and I read some of the comments when the article came out and they were so vile and hateful - saying stuff like “Deport all Chinese from USA”, “We need to be on guard against the yellow peril”, “All Chinese are copycats”. Really WTF?
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “All Chinese are copycats” where’d they get the idea for Trust-Mart?
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Anyone who has read anything at all about China > > and their culture would probably understand the > > roots of this kind of upbringing. The high > regard > > for education is linked to the consequences of > not > > having that education in a place where wars, > war > > lords, famines and scratching to survive in an > > overpopulated country for centuries was a harsh > > reality. > > Actually a superficial (“anyone who has read > anything…”) understanding really leads to an > inaccurate answer here. The narrative is nuanced > by a very long history going back to ancient > China. I don’t have time to articulate it all > here, but go look up Confucianism and Records of > the Grand Historian for some detail. Briefly and > completely in keeping with the spirit of the > article, here two tenets from Confucius’ “Great > Learning”: > > -Each and every person is capable of learning and > self-cultivation regardless of social, economic or > political status. This, in turn, means that > success in learning is the result of the effort of > the individual as opposed to an inability to > learn. > > -One must treat education as an intricate and > interrelated system where one must strive for > balance. No one aspect of learning is isolated > from the other and failure to cultivate a single > aspect of one’s learning will lead to the failure > of learning as a whole. this dude is dropping knowledge from Zhu Xi
For a large swath of history, China was the most technologically advanced society on the planet (periodically eclipsed by India, as well). The West was comparable in achievements to the Chinese at the height of the Roman Empire, but then collapsed for about a thousand years. Around 1000 AD, the Byzantine Empire was also comparable in accomplishments to China. In 1000AD, the Byzantines had a literacy rate of over 80% (might even be as high as 90%). The resurgence of the West basically began with the Rennaisance (which broke the monopoly of Catholicism over Western thinknig) and went into high gear with the Scientific Revolution (which created a non-theological basis for knowledge) and the Enlightenment (which produced the liberal values underpinning both political democracy and free-markets). These together produced the Industrial Revolution, which made possible the West’s domination of the rest of the world between 1800 and the late 20th century. Although China has historically been a center of creativity and technological progress for most of human history, the rate of technological growth and accomplishment is 100s of time faster today than it was in China’s glory days. Some of that has to do with the population - that 1/3 of the people who have ever lived (past the age of 5, at least) are alive today - and China does have an advantage in that they have a billion people that are capable of being applied to parallel processing tasks. But it also has to do with the power of liberal societies to generate innvoation. China’s civil service testing dates back to the Han dynasty and became widespread during the Sui and Tang dynasties around the 6th century AD. This is one reason why the Chinese upper classes evolved a culture so focused on passing examinations (and, often by any means possible). So yes, there is something “Chinese” about the focus on exam-passing. The Chinese civil service examination system was a genuine innovation for its time, and contributed to the effectiveness of Chinese administration for a thousand years; in the west, public service exams became the norm only in the 1800s. Previously, posts were handed out to people based on relations between nobles - the destruction and impoverishment of the aristocracy following the American, French, and Industrial revolutions made it necessary to select a civil service by some other mechanism, thus were created examinations. In China, the exams allowed for meritocratic social mobility, although the wealthy did have advantages in their ability to prepare for and pass the exams. What China has lacked in recent history is creative ability. Creativity is not something innately un-Chinese. The problem is that creative thinking is stunted by political authoritarianism. If there are areas of thought that can get you thrown in prison, most people simply will avoid thinking about dangerous things, and they will stop thinking about things that lead to dangerous thoughts. This has the tendency to “bleed out” into wide areas. To some extent, maths and sciences are less political, so it is “safer” to apply one’s intelligence to those areas, without stepping on the toes of a political class. They are also more easily “testable”. But the focus on tests and political conformity does stunt creativity. The Chinese are clearly making a push to try to improve creative thinking, but it is innately challenging, because the moment one starts to think outside the box in one area, one may start to think outside the box in political areas, and the authorities will have problems with that. To test this, we should take a look at mainland Chinese vs. Korean and Taiwanese students. Taiwanese and Koreans live in a less repressive society than the mainlanders, and so the differences should show up there.