HoldSideAnalyst Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > FrankArabia Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > most those averages at teh Ivey leagues have > GMATs > > averaging 700. i would suspect 15 is the std. > > deviation. > > Might want to check your math again there, chief. not really possible to check my math if i’m only given the mean. just an estimate. plus, we dont’ even know if the distribution is normal. what do you expect the std. dev to be then?
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FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > most those averages at teh Ivey leagues have GMATs > averaging 700. i would suspect 15 is the std. > deviation. yes, this is probably right. schools and admissions counselors LOVE to talk about the ONE guy who got in after curing cancer, raising $10 million for charity and trekking across africa alone on foot, but who happens to be a poor test taker and scored 530 on the exam. yeah right. the truth is that the admissions councelors want the business and the schools want to increase the number of applicantions they receive so they can reject more people. a higher yield indicates higher prestige. i would bet that most of the scores of people admitted are right near the average – 680-730ish – and that the schools manage the heck out of that number to make sure it stays above 700.
FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > HoldSideAnalyst Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > FrankArabia Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > most those averages at teh Ivey leagues have > > GMATs > > > averaging 700. i would suspect 15 is the std. > > > deviation. > > > > Might want to check your math again there, > chief. > > not really possible to check my math if i’m only > given the mean. just an estimate. plus, we dont’ > even know if the distribution is normal. > > what do you expect the std. dev to be then? Well, as Danteshek’s link points out, the average GMAT at Wharton is 712, and the middle 80% range is 660-760. No, we don’t know what the distribution looks like, but it’s entirely reasonable to assume it’s normal or close to normal. Since we know 50 points represents from the 50% to the 90% percentile, and my handy Z-table indicates 40% from the mean is about 1.285, we can calculate the std dev is closer to 31. But all it takes is a simple sniff test to tell me 15 is incorrect - if it was 15, a score of 760 would represent a 3 standard deviation event, occurring about .5% of the time. But we know 10% of students scored 760 or better.
agreed with HSA. in addition, i don’t know why we always get into these protracted discussions about caliber of schools, test scores, and so forth. just study harder on your GMAT’s and you can worry less about what the mean or stdev is.
i conclude that the distribution is not normal. rather, it is positively skewed.
FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i conclude that the distribution is not normal. > rather, it is positively skewed. Why? The middle 80% is symmetric around the mean. If it were positively skewed you would expect the mean to be higher. Are you just pulling your conclusions out of thin air? Come on, isn’t this CAIA stuff?
Danteshek Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ryguy904 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Danteshek Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > > > > 20% of students at Wharton have 670 or less. > > > Thats a fact. > > > > > > D- > > What’s your source? > > > Sorry. I misspoke. 20% of students have 660 or > less > > http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/community/classpr > ofile/ > > The middle 80% is 660 to 760. HSA, initially, my estimate was out of the air. Upon looking at this, if we assume that the lower portion does’nt stray too far from the mean, then the std might problably be 19.5 or so given the max is 760 and 20% below are under 660. However, i do suspect that entry level scores are going to be positively skeweed on a theoretical basis simply for that fact that you’re going to have the mode at around 700 with a lots of people doing better but none that are that bad. we know there are problably more people getting in with 760 then 640. I definitely don’t think the distribution is normal since we’re talking about the proportion of people that get taken in, not the proportion of test takers. Just think back in your advanced classes where the mode was problably 80% with some people in the 90s but none in the low 70s. oh well, you might disagree. but until we get a full distribution, it’ll be really difficult to tell.
If the middle 80% is from 660-760, that means 10% are below 660 and 10% are above 760. All the actual data points we have point to me being correct, and you’ve got nothing but rank speculation. Why am I even bothering arguing with someone who can’t correctly interpret the data we’ve been given?
HSA, i think you should check your math chief and also read clearly what the data points we’re using is. I used the data that 80% is between 760-660 and the remaining 20% being below 660 as indicated by dante’s post. yeah, read it again. nothing in it says 10% is above 760. yeah, read it again, nothing in it says 10% is above 760. yeah, read it again…haha now you’re being disparaging which i anticipated you to be. why are you arguing? i suspect you want to feel a sense of intelligence or intellectual superiority. why am I responding, i have nothing better to do in between calls. how about we both go and take the GMAT and see who gets the higher score. if you win, i will disband from this forum forever, but if you lose, you have to get me an ibanking gig at a holdside firm.
FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- >i have nothing better to do > in between calls. Funny. > how about we both go and take the GMAT and see who > gets the higher score. if you win, i will disband > from this forum forever, but if you lose, you have > to get me an ibanking gig at a holdside firm. You can download a free mock exam on the GMAT website.
hueion, thanks for the link. But the exams have to be official. something that you can send into Harvard or Wharton letting them know that this was the result of an argument over the statistical properties of the GMAT scores of MBA entrants. Holdside Analyst failed his ethics section everytime. he might try to get someone else to write it for him.
Upon doing some more research, I found a recent chat transcript with Rose Martinelli, Associate Dean for Student Recruitment and Enrollment at U Chicago. She basically says flat out, if you are in our 80% range, don’t worry about the GMAT…Whether this is true, is unkown, but I’ll let you know in late March for sure 
http://www.chicagogsb.edu/fulltime/chat/transcript/2007-09-18_rose.aspx
FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > HSA, i think you should check your math chief and > also read clearly what the data points we’re using > is. > > I used the data that 80% is between 760-660 and > the remaining 20% being below 660 as indicated by > dante’s post. yeah, read it again. nothing in it > says 10% is above 760. yeah, read it again, > nothing in it says 10% is above 760. yeah, read it > again…haha Do you understand the meaning of the word “middle”?
HSA, you’re too funny. thank you for replying so promptly. love sparring with you. check the stats dude. 80% between 760-660. 20% under 660. don’t know where you got 10% should be above 760 from unless you’re blatantly ignoring the data set you were using. enough is enough. you got sonned. now we doing the GMAT endurance challenge or are you going to take the CAIA?
http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/community/classprofile/ I ask again: Do you understand the meaning of the word “middle”? I’ll explain: “Middle” 80% means from the 10% percentile to the 90% percentile. That represents a range on 80% of students which are in the “middle”. Some students come from above the middle, and some from below.
HoldSideAnalyst Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I’ll explain: “Middle” 80% means from the 10% > percentile to the 90% percentile. That represents > a range on 80% of students which are in the > “middle”. Some students come from above the > middle, and some from below. HSA is right. Frank, quit while you’re ahead…oh wait…just quit. Cheers
HoldSideAnalyst Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If the middle 80% is from 660-760, that means 10% > are below 660 and 10% are above 760. All the > actual data points we have point to me being > correct, and you’ve got nothing but rank > speculation. Why am I even bothering arguing with > someone who can’t correctly interpret the data > we’ve been given? First of all, who uses the term “middle” as a statistical description. try mean, median, or proportion if you like. you might as well just say 80% of the population lie between 760-660. now, read what you wrote carefully. take your time. you stated in your own words that 10% is above 760. read it again. according to Dante’s data, 20% is below 660. i don’t have to explain no further as to where our disagreement ends or begins. i’m done here. you taking the gmat challenge or not? This is going to be one of the most anticipated challenges on the analyst forum as of yet. The forum needs it. We will bring AF back to life. i thought you were a smart holdside guy, now i realize you’re just trying to call me names. shame on you. why do I bother arguing with someone who obviously can’t even read the data that is given? > > Danteshek Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > > > > 20% of students at Wharton have 670 or less. > > > Thats a fact. > > > > > > D- > > What’s your source? > > > Sorry. I misspoke. 20% of students have 660 or > less >
Dante’s data is from the link I posted. Check it yourself. Nah, why bother. I’ll post it myself: Wharton Class of 2009 Profile: 712 Average GMAT 660-760 GMAT Range (middle 80%) So Dante, (and by extension, you) have the data wrong. I’m not taking the GMAT or getting an MBA, my opportunity cost is too high.
*handshake*