I wanted to add 2 cents from perspective of medical professional. First of all, the methodology of this survey makes no sense to me. They lump ‘physicians and surgeons, all others’, together. Last time I checked surgeons were physicians. Second, surgeons making less than 200K is absolutely ridiculous, unless they somehow include the residency and fellowship pay. General surgeons make way more than that, and surgical subspecialties pay even better. Third, all the numbers seem on the low end. Anesthesia pays very well… I can’t think of anybody from my medschool who went into anasthesia and making less than 300K, unless they work part time. However… it’s not a bed of roses. The reimbursement have been falling, and the workload has been creeping up. It takes 9-13 years to become a doctor. That’s more than a decade of opportunity costs + massive debt. Significant portion of people won’t make it. Many of those who do are unhappy with their job. I personally know an internist who started working last year… She’s considering career change. I have had similar thoughts myself, although I never acted on it… Also, job security is a myth for many. Your employability depends on many factors, chiefly on your specialty and where you choose to practice. My good friend told me that the only way for him to find a job is to wait for a senior doc to die. Maybe dollar-by-dollar, moneywise most doctors catch up with finance professionals by the time they are in their mid forties… but many ask themselves question… “Was it worth it?” Oh and about your date with dermatologist, numi… Dermatologists are considered elite, they are well known to have the highest earning-per-hour potential. NO surprise that your date feels secure about her financial future. Dermatologists are not representative of the masses. BTW… I work with dermatologists every day; my specialty is skin pathology… and let me tell you, the women in dermatology are the best looking ones among all specialties… Gotta perform well on these interviews
dang, where are all the dermatologists?! i can’t find any… 
dinner “date” last night with a govn-related personal (not American) went pretty ok except when it came to the bill. since i’d run out of cash, i offered to pay by credit card. not only did he not offer to pay for the dinner (not that i wanted him to, though it would have been a nice gesture), he didn’t splilt the bill in half but split it by what we ate respectively. even then, he paid me less than he should have!
The dentists I know are showing no signs of regret. One specifically told me that it is not the best job in the world, but what is? He works hard, plays hard. He knows that his job is not fun but at the end of the day what he does allows him to do what he wants outside of the office. He has a beautiful MILF of a wife (who is a lawyer herself) with a even more beautiful and more intelligent daughter, good friends, and family members. I must point out that he did not come from a great social-economic background and pretty much ate ramen and eggs during his college years. With the medical field it is not necessarily required for a graduate to come from the top schools, to have the best writing, social skills, or to have a good network. Also, I do think that a big influence of what major/field/career a person wants to get into depends on his or her background. Coming from a small city, not many people I know have ever even considered finance field. When dreaming of making it big, the fields are usually law, medical (…except for chiropractors - that’s another story), or being a small business owner. As to dinner dates and paying the tab - if you have to worry about your date being able to pick up the bill, don’t date him/her in the first place. As a female, I think that it is nice and chilvarous of a man to pay for the date, at least the first couple of dates. I know that if the relationship progresses that I would be more than happy to alternate taking care of the tab. I definitely do not want to owe anything just for a “free” dinner. If he is a gentleman and doesn’t let me, I usually just shower him with gifts or do special things for him. Also, keep in mind that (I am assuming) since a lot of us are still young, money might be a problem for both genders. Most of the world doesn’t shop at Neimans, eat at five star restaurants every week, or drink $12+ martinis.
Hi nycdoc – thank you for your perspectives. I definitely appreciate hearing the insights from someone such as yourself who’s also in the medical profession. If I had to summarize, I’d have to say that dating this girl feels to me like I’m dating a female version of myself (though cuter and better looking), and it’s exciting and sort of nerve-wracking at the same time. I can explain. My date was definitely very confident, and even though I got the sense that she sees me as someone that’s at her “level” (e.g. based on commonalities in education, professional prospects, family upbringing, and all that other stuff), I think it might be hard for me to find my way consistently into her schedule. In my past relationships, I was always the one who had the hectic schedule and the girl basically had to be willing to accommodate me in order to make things work. In this case, the girl I’m seeing is a second-year dermatology resident, and is also thinking about doing a fellowship after residency, so one has to figure that she’s going to be pretty darn busy for the next three years. It seems pretty evident that she is even more of a go-getter than I am – she might not know it because she seems to be pretty fascinated with my career, but it’s true. Fortunately, I don’t have any inferiority complex about hanging out with a girl that is smarter or more accomplished than me (unless she actually tries to put me down for it, but fortunately that’s not the case). Anyway, the whole situation is pretty interesting because even though I’ve got another date lined up with her, getting a time on the calendar seems like it’ll be a challenge, mostly because she’s so busy. At first I thought maybe she was just blowing me off – it took enough effort to schedule our first couple of outings (also because I didn’t want to bend over just to accommodate her timelines) – but now I realize that she really is busy. I’m willing to stay patient about things because I have no reason to rush things, but it is a bit intriguing and perplexing at the same time to find someone that is actually more career-oriented than I am. In addition, she’s already in her late 20’s, and it seems like most of her friends are already engaged or married. Based on your experience, do you think that girls like this are always going to be very dedicated to career advancement and keep relationships or romance on the backburner, or will they eventually make time for guys? Again, I pretty much believe that she’s doing her best to make time for me (I always tease her about stuff and put her on the spot, but always ends up justifying why she’s busy, which I can appreciate)…but, it may just be the case that she’s going to be too tied up to let a relationship develop at the pace that I’m used to, and I’d hate to lose the opportunity to meet other eligible women. I’d love to hear your (as well as anyone else’s) thoughts on this.
cfaprincess – where are all the dermatologists, LOL…i’d been wondering about that for the longest time. Good luck finding a single male one – I have a couple friends here who are surgery residents at it seems like girls are all over them. I can only imagine what it’s like for the derm residents. Anyway, I’m sure you’ve got a good a chance as any other gal, but it does seem like male doctors are much more sought-after for relationships than female doctors. My female friends that are in medicine but are also single often lament the fact that they don’t have the same type of social benefits having the “M.D.” behind their name the way the men do, because either guys are intimidated by their professional accomplishments (which I personally am not) or because guys just don’t feel like they’ll get much time of day (which I’m sort of on the fence about, in my very limited experience with dating girls in medicine). By the way, I agree with janedoe’s assessment of your dinner situation. That’s pretty crumby that the guy didn’t at least split the bill with you. I can’t believe he actually wanted to divide the check based on who ordered what. Shame on him. Well, there are bigger fish in the sea and you don’t need to waste your time on that guy…seriously, if he’s already doing that on the first date, it’s just a part of who he is and it probably won’t change over the course of his lifetime. You can do better! I can understand if a guy has no money and just wants to split the check, but I still feel like it sets a better precedent if he offers to take up the bill on the first date. That being said, I also think it’s completely respectable to have the girl at least offer to pay for stuff once in a while. It doesn’t even mean that they have to, but just seeing the gesture of a girl willing to reciprocate says a lot about them. Sounds like janedoe’s got the right idea here.
janedoe & numi: my thoughts exactly on the “picking up the tab” issue. a relationship (platonic or otherwise) requires a certain give-and-take dynamic, there’s really no need to be overly calculating. i’m perfectly fine with paying every now and then and don’t expect the guy to pay 100% of the time. thought it would have been “chivalrous” for him to at least offer to pay, in which case i’d have offered to either go dutch or treat him the next time round. this is not the first time he has been so miserly with me. once, it started raining (heavily) after dinner and he had the audacity to ask me to run across the street to get my car! (it was parked about 100m away) i suggested getting an umbrella from the convenience store - it cost only US$5 and he didn’t even offer to pay for it. enough said. no more “dates” with this guy anymore. i don’t even consider it a date given that we’re old friends, though i get the vibe that he’s interested but not willing to “pay his dues” to get the girl.
cfaprincess, I think you have the right idea about things so it probably doesn’t make much sense for me to belabor the point about what I think of that guy. I am curious though whether paying only for one’s own share is an East Asian thing to do? I don’t notice it as much among Asian Americans but have seen it happen at least occasionally with my friends who are from East Asia. Anyway, it’s not like I have a huge sample pool to judge from but I was curious whether you thought this might be the case, seeing as how you do work in that part of the globe. Anyway, some of that guy’s behavior is probably attributable to his cultural norms, or maybe that’s just how he is. In any case, it’s too bad for you that those are the rules he wants to play by – sorry that the evening didn’t go the way you’d like, but you can definitely do better anyway. You’re probably best off writing the experience off to history and not even thinking about it anymore…just not worth your time. Since we’re on the topic of picking up the bill, there’s something I’m curious about. Namely, how do girls *really* feel when the guy picks up the check on the first date? I accept that different girls have different opinions on this, but I was wondering if there was a general sentiment about it. As for myself, I generally offer to pay for the bill whether I’m on a date with a girl and hoping it’ll lead to something more, or even if she’s just a friend. There’s nothing in my book of values or ethics that says that I need to take the bill; it’s just that I sometimes like to treat people because I enjoy their company. It’s no different from my buying a round of beers for my guy friends when we go out on a weekend night – nothing says I have to do that either, but they’re my buddies and I feel like taking care of them (and usually, they reciprocate on a subsequent round of drinks anyway, which is nice). My question is, why do some women seem to have an aversion to a guy paying for dinner or drinks, as if they might actually owe the guy something? Do girls feel the pressure that if a guy pays for stuff, she has to give back in another way to appease them? I’m just wondering why it seems so hard for some girls just to graciously accept it when a guy wants to cover the bill; a simple “thank you” would do. I don’t think a guy offering to pay suggests anything about the guy expecting the girl to owe them something, or that he thinks the girl is unable to pay, or whatever…but, who really knows. What do you girls think? Does this depend on how independent or feminist the girl is?
I guess its an assertion of financial independence…Its the transition phase for women in many Asian countries… I am from India, and that was the way we generally did things…If its a bunch of friends, then going dutch is the norm…, even if there was only one guy in the group… This guy very often offered to pay and he was met with a simple question… Why? Just because you are a guy?? [:)] And Even if it was a date, many girls would prefer paying for their own share…so that they dont owe anything at the end of it, just in case they do not want to take it forward… There is this feeling that if u happen to bump into the guy anytime, u dont feel obligated to dine with him … Once they are comfortable/ committed then the guy paying is perfectly acceptable(rather expected)…
2008 Annual Physician Incomes (Pre-Bonus) http://bp0.blogger.com/_jyVH1tFBOXI/SIazRPZ4PPI/AAAAAAAABVM/BWRCaIf_RTA/s1600-h/2008+MD+Salary+Survey.jpg
simi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I guess its an assertion of financial > independence…Its the transition phase for women > in many Asian countries… I am from India, and > that was the way we generally did things…If its > a bunch of friends, then going dutch is the > norm…, even if there was only one guy in the > group… > > This guy very often offered to pay and he was met > with a simple question… Why? Just because you > are a guy?? [:)] > > And Even if it was a date, many girls would prefer > paying for their own share…so that they dont owe > anything at the end of it, just in case they do > not want to take it forward… There is this > feeling that if u happen to bump into the guy > anytime, u dont feel obligated to dine with him > … > Once they are comfortable/ committed then the guy > paying is perfectly acceptable(rather expected)… Usually I pay for the first couple of dates but I would hope that the girl would offer to pay atleast for part of it after the first few dates …once we are comfortable/committed if she expects me to pay all the time …it would not last very long …
Well, I got married to the guy in question, '…And after the commitment part he did take offense if I insisted on paying. I guess it just differs from person to person. But i did invest for him and he paid back then, but rarely now… so its okay 
Rudeboi Wrote: > > Usually I pay for the first couple of dates but I > would hope that the girl would offer to pay > atleast for part of it after the first few dates > …once we are comfortable/committed if she expects > me to pay all the time …it would not last very > long …
simi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I guess its an assertion of financial > independence…Its the transition phase for women > in many Asian countries… I am from India, and > that was the way we generally did things…If its > a bunch of friends, then going dutch is the > norm…, even if there was only one guy in the > group… > > This guy very often offered to pay and he was met > with a simple question… Why? Just because you > are a guy?? [:)] > > And Even if it was a date, many girls would prefer > paying for their own share…so that they dont owe > anything at the end of it, just in case they do > not want to take it forward… There is this > feeling that if u happen to bump into the guy > anytime, u dont feel obligated to dine with him > … > Once they are comfortable/ committed then the guy > paying is perfectly acceptable(rather expected)… OK, that makes sense. I was more curious as to how often the girl actually felt like they owed something, or maybe the better question is, how often the girl felt that the guy expected to be “paid back” at some point. I assume this must happen pretty often. That said, personally, I often take the bill just because I enjoyed a person’s company or companionship, and not as though I expect the other person to return the favor in the future…
numi, Women will always remain mystery to me, but based on what you’ve said, it seems that your date values your confidence and humor way more than anything that has to do with your career or bank account. She’s a very very high achiever in her field, and financially she will never depend on you for anything, maybe unless we’re talking private jet or vacation in space. From my interactions with dermatology women, they’ve all had perfect grades and/or outstanding social skills… That’s how you get derm. oh and among males in medical specialties, it’s the surgeons, ESPECIALLY orthopedic surgeons, that hold the alpha status. Those are the macho type of meatheads, who wrestle during rounds and can stay up for 36 hours straight, and get into screaming matches with anasthesiologists… They live in the hospital though (or gym), so they’re rarely seen going out… Good luck to you cfaprincess though… If you want a clean-cut type who will speak French to you on the first date and will entertain you with quotes from TV shows from 70s, by all means go for a dermatologist. BTW, dentists do have the highest suicide rates among all professions, it’s a scientific fact, not an opinion. One theory holds that the reason is that they get massive negative reinforcement every day at work… I mean, we all dread dentists… They see pain on their patient’s face daily… gotta snap one day… Stereotypes FTW…
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hi nycdoc – thank you for your perspectives. I > definitely appreciate hearing the insights from > someone such as yourself who’s also in the medical > profession. If I had to summarize, I’d have to say > that dating this girl feels to me like I’m dating > a female version of myself (though cuter and > better looking), and it’s exciting and sort of > nerve-wracking at the same time. I can explain. > > My date was definitely very confident, and even > though I got the sense that she sees me as someone > that’s at her “level” (e.g. based on commonalities > in education, professional prospects, family > upbringing, and all that other stuff), I think it > might be hard for me to find my way consistently > into her schedule. In my past relationships, I was > always the one who had the hectic schedule and the > girl basically had to be willing to accommodate me > in order to make things work. In this case, the > girl I’m seeing is a second-year dermatology > resident, and is also thinking about doing a > fellowship after residency, so one has to figure > that she’s going to be pretty darn busy for the > next three years. It seems pretty evident that she > is even more of a go-getter than I am – she might > not know it because she seems to be pretty > fascinated with my career, but it’s true. > Fortunately, I don’t have any inferiority complex > about hanging out with a girl that is smarter or > more accomplished than me (unless she actually > tries to put me down for it, but fortunately > that’s not the case). > > Anyway, the whole situation is pretty interesting > because even though I’ve got another date lined up > with her, getting a time on the calendar seems > like it’ll be a challenge, mostly because she’s so > busy. At first I thought maybe she was just > blowing me off – it took enough effort to > schedule our first couple of outings (also because > I didn’t want to bend over just to accommodate her > timelines) – but now I realize that she really is > busy. I’m willing to stay patient about things > because I have no reason to rush things, but it is > a bit intriguing and perplexing at the same time > to find someone that is actually more > career-oriented than I am. In addition, she’s > already in her late 20’s, and it seems like most > of her friends are already engaged or married. > > Based on your experience, do you think that girls > like this are always going to be very dedicated to > career advancement and keep relationships or > romance on the backburner, or will they eventually > make time for guys? Again, I pretty much believe > that she’s doing her best to make time for me (I > always tease her about stuff and put her on the > spot, but always ends up justifying why she’s > busy, which I can appreciate)…but, it may just > be the case that she’s going to be too tied up to > let a relationship develop at the pace that I’m > used to, and I’d hate to lose the opportunity to > meet other eligible women. I’d love to hear your > (as well as anyone else’s) thoughts on this. somehow i began picturing Will Hunting and Skylar…sorry I have nothing else to add to this thread…an entertaining one nonetheless…
nycdoc, thanks for your insights. I definitely agree with you that my date values confidence and a sense of humor. In fact, all the other stuff like my education, family background, and earnings potential seemed pretty much like pre-screening criteria for her (though she was definitely pretty diligent about checking all the boxes). Anyway, she’s probably one of the most high-achieving girls I’ve been out with, so it’s somewhat uncharted territory for me. It’s definitely going to take more time for things to develop simply because I’m expecting just to see her about once a week, and really don’t know her that well. However, it’s pretty evident that she’s emotionally mature and knows what she wants, which is why I’m willing to hang in there for now and “play by her rules” (without it actually coming across to her that way). That being said, I also won’t keep my expectations too high and won’t put all my eggs in the same basket…after all, I gotta keep my options open too. I’ll let you know what happens. By the way, I remember reading a while back that you were looking to switch from the medical profession into finance, possibly equity research. Have you or are you still looking to make that move? I actually covered healthcare companies before moving to private equity, and if you have any questions or just want some honest perspectives, I’d be happy to help.
I didnt get failed getting into med school, thats why im at this forum now.
Thank you numi. Yes, I was strongly considering a career switch, and I might branch into finance one day. However atm I chose to stay in medicine at least for next 5 years. This decision had little to do with the current market turmoil and much to do with a very good opportunity which opened up. Thanks anyway.
nydoc, I think you made a good decision. As you establish yourself in the medical profession, I’m sure you’ll have the opportunity to consult for banks and hedge funds which should be pretty good income on its own. Healthcare equity research is pretty interesting, but probably not as cool as you might think it is. If you enjoy reading the clinical literature, I’d say biotech is something that certain MD’s and PhD’s really like; however, other areas of healthcare that aren’t science-intensive and you’d probably feel like you were up the steepest part of the learning curve after 1.5 or 2 years. That’s how I felt, at least.
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- thankfully and fortunately, i started dating a dermatologist recently. we’ll see how things go – if the markets continue to go south, at least she has the ability to pick up our tabs. i’m sure that’s exactly what she had in mind dating someone in finance…not… eric23 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I still regret not becoming a dentist after my > dad. Dentist? Dermatologist? Those are real doctors are they?
Dentists have a great job in tems of risk/reward/ hours, but the tedium is too great. I would never do that for the rest of the life.