LOL
double
I do not agree with this statement at all! You can have a moderate liberal Muslim country; example, Morocco. Morocco is well known by Europeans (and North Americans lately) for being a fun party place to visit. There are probably more night clubs/bars in Marrakesh/Casablanca than there is in San Francisco!
Morocco is NOT in the middle east, and it has a Western culture in everything they do. Muslim country yes, but definitely can’t be compared to Saudi Arabia! There were 30,000 Spanish nationals that moved to Morocco in 2015 to find work (since their economy is shady). Marrakesh was ranked the #1 tourist destination by Trip Advisor last year I think. Morocco has Muslims and Jews that have been living in the same neighbourhoods for centuries…
Putting ALL the muslim countries in the same bucket is just WRONG!
Whatever we say we need allies in ME to defeat these fucking ISIS bastards. Watch Body of Lies. That’s how things get done not by labelling everyone with the same color. You can’t literally win this war before defeating them on land, you will have to get down there and fight this guerrilla war. But there is a growing expectation to see more contribution from ME countries into battlefield. Why everyone is waiting for USA to act? I guess India should intervene too because Indian army is an expert in guerrilla war strategy as they have done it many times. I don’t understand why India enjoy this non-alignment policy so much?
Russia+China+India+US+(Some countries in ME) Can’t beat fucking ISIS? I highly doubt that! The problem I see here is that countries are not willing to fight together they want to do some air strikes here and there and say yes, we are supporting our allies.
Why China doesn’t get involve in this? As thrump says $500 billion decifit at least they can spend some on military to keep the FTAs on the table.
Whoa, new poster jumping into it.
Anyhow, in hindsight I do feel bad about baiting Audacious. It was rude, but I was curious to see what would happen given that ripping on Mohammed is technically not a big deal over here but potentially a capital crime over there with this being an annoymous forum and all. To be fair, he was relatively calm about the whole thing all things considered.
I still think he’s simply a Sunni pushing the Sunni agenda and I’ve never met a Sunni that hasn’t, so I have a hard time viewing him as moderate. I’m just glad the US is staying out of it, but losing faith that this will continue to be the case. Interventionism just hasn’t worked in this region, ever. Two things need to happen in the region.
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The governments in place need to become strong enough to rule their own land. This can only be accomplished through minimalist interventionism as they learn to stand on their own two feet. It will also only occur when the governments eventually become more reflective of their populace. We need to let that play out.
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To Ohai’s point, it is difficult to seperate the actions of individuals in church / state environments. The people may need to go through the process of standing up to their religion and divorcing church from state. I think this will be more difficult for them given the differences in recorded ideologies. Christianity had the good fortune of initially being a counter cultural movement and including passages such as, “let be unto Caeser what is Caesers” to fuel the process. I think the transition is proving harder for Islam.
I never put ALL Muslims in the same bucket. Learn to read. There are of course, counter examples to the countries that I mentioned. However, for every Morocco that you mention, I can name three Saudi Arabia or other countries. I respect your perspective, but that does nothing to invalidate my perspective as someone who actually grew up in such a place, suffered persecution, and moved to the US for this reason. I know what it is like to live and grow up in a place that is 10x worse than anything Donald Trump can create in the US (and maybe this is why I can take these disturbing developments with some degree of humor and indifference).
Anyway, I don’t like to talk about my background, but I GUARANTEE that I have more reason than most people here to fear or hate a certain religion. Yet, I still find that I can learn from different people with diverse experiences, and I hope you can do so as well. Violence is a means that ignorant and petty people use to express their dissatisfaction with their small place in the world. Religion is an excuse that stupid and small people use to justify their narrow point of view. One could argue that religion in the US has a worse effect than terrorism; it is just expressed in non-violent ways.
“Empire” - you are an ignorant person. You reach out to “defend” Islam with a shallow example. Yet, you made the worst presumption - that what I said was supposed to portray Islam in a negative view. None of what I said is negative. Eating halal food is not negative. Adhering to religious law is not negative. Marrying four wives is not negative (yeah). Yet, your rush to “defend” Islam against my presumptive slander reflects your biases - you think that somehow those things that I consider to be cultural norms are negative. You are ignorant. You think your Western culture is superior to what people in other countries consider to be morally praiseworthy. People in Morrocco would vomit at your lack of perpsective (“wanna 'Vom” according to Miley Cyrus). You need to change. Spend some of your $50k salary that is less than 10% of mine to go travel. Spend some time in a different culture. Reach out to me again once you have gained some notable perspective.
Anyway, that’s about it.
Edit: This is mostly to that Empire guy.
^something strike a nerve?
I read Empires post and thought it was a narrow and relatively useless, but it didn’t elicit that knd of reaction.
Um, I think you should assume amything I post here after 10pm ET is following four Yamazakis. That’s the case at the moment. This might look different in the morning, but I thought anyone who takes the time to quote me in the post deserves some extra consideration.
Ohai, why are you so bitter man! Just chill a little!
I quote: “it can be difficult to be what Americans would consider to be a “moderately” religious person in some Muslim countries, since the religion tends to be institutionalized into government and all parts of society.”
Response: As mentioned in my previous post, citizens of several Muslim countries can be viewed as “moderate” in their countries, and in a country such as the US. A proof of that would be the muslim people in your circle that are honest, law abiding US citizens
I quote: Anyway, I don’t like to talk about my background, but I GUARANTEE that I have more reason than most people here to fear or hate a certain religion. Yet, I still find that I can learn from different people with diverse experiences, and I hope you can do so as well. Violence is a means that ignorant and petty people use to express their dissatisfaction with their small place in the world. Religion is a reason that stupid and small people use to justify their narrow point of view. One could argue that religion in the US has a worse effect than terrorism; it is just expressed in non-violent ways.
I will have to agree with you on this; we can all learn from different people with diverse experiences. It is also obvious that ISIS is trying to justify their evil plans by using religion as their shield. This however tends to harm the image of Islam, and I don’t think all muslims have to pay for that by mean of hate and discrimination.
I quote: “Empire” - you are an ignorant person. You reach out to “defend” Islam with a shallow example. Yet, you made the worst presumption - that what I said was supposed to be portray Islam in a negative view. None of what I said is negative. Eating halal food is not negative. Adhering to religious law is not negative. Marrying four wives is not negative (yeah). Yet, your rush to “defend” Islam against my presumptive slander reflects your biases - you think that somehow those things that I consider to be cultural norms are negative. You are ignorant. You think your Western culture is superior to what people in other countries consider to be morally praiseworthy. People in Morrocco would vomit at your lack of perpsective (“wanna ‘Vom” according to Miley Cyrus). You need to change. Spend some of your $50k salary that is less than 10% of mine to go travel. Spend some time in a different culture. Reach out to me again once you have gained some notable perspective.
Response: Classy! You are probably one of those that discriminate against hard working US citizens, because they don’t have a maserati and a corner office just like you. This is a total lack of respect, and your assumption of my salary is way off buddy!
Audacious is a Sunni Muslim from the Gulf. Is it abnormal for him to pursue a worldview driven by Sunni Arab perspectives? If Americans can express American POVs and Europeans can express European POVs, being more sympathetic towards Saudi Arabia doesn’t rule out somebody being moderate. Should he be praising Iran and Israel to meet your definition of moderation?
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Empire: I didn’t disrespect you. I stated an observation, that you are ignorant. Ignorance is not necessarily positive or negative. It is a state of being: “lacking knowledge or awareness in general”. From your post, you lack perspective, for reasons that I described. People say it takes 5 minutes to determine the outcome of an interview. It takes one post to determine your level of knowledge on this topic. Have you lived in a Muslim country? You are ignorant with respect to Islamic culture. I am sorry if you perceive this to be slanderous. I am ignorant of some things, like women’s underwear selection. Relative to you, howeveer, I am most likely not ignorant to Islamic culture.
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Well, I don’t have a Maserati… just a deceptively large bank account. I was wrong to belittle your salary. In fact, I have nothing but respect for the industrious US worker. Hopefully, once the US annexes Canada, you too will be able to enjoy the fruits of American labor.
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I am far from being ignorant when it comes to this matter. I have several friends and a few family members who are muslim. I have also visitied a couple Muslim countries, that do not at all reflect what ISIS is making the world think Islam is.
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US annexing Canada? I know who you are voting for; let me guess… Trump!
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With your total lack of respect for others’ opinions and views, and I am wondering how your team meetings go at the office. I bet you don’t have too many fans over there…
I have never seen my main man Ohai lay into someone like that before. Must be the good shit you’re sipping.
whats the seasoning on the elixir?
btw does anyone know why Iran was hacking a dam in New York?
ive seen it a couple times before. He doesn’t often do it, but when he does, he can be pretty brutal.
This was an entertaining Lord of the Flies episode along with a vagina spitting ping pong balls.
A couple of points:
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On retards: it’s not offensive unless applied on the mentally challenged. Given that I don’t know whether some in here are mentally challenged (a strong possibility), I feel I shouldn’t have said it. So, I stand corrected: you are a retard only if you are not mentally challenged. You are most welcome.
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On Mohammed: from where did you get that I got angry? I was just disgusted by it. I feel as disgusted if someone said the same about Jesus, Moses, Abraham,… or if I hear someone makes “yo mama jokes” on anyone. This is mean and low. And I don’t like racial or sexual slurs.
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On siding with KSA: I have a lot of negative remarks on KSA, but they were not in the context of the discussion. I was correcting few lies. Telling lies on people you hate doesn’t make them true.
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On siding with Europe and everyone else against ISIS: of course, ISIS are criminals and we stand with humanity against those animals. But wait, it seems that nobody mentioned my position against ISIS. Why would you? You want to mark every Muslim as ISIS. Audacious, to KSA, to Sunni, to ISIS. This gives you satisfaction, right?
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The Sunni stuff: this is the new buzz word in the West for whomever want to sound knowledgeable about sh*#t. 85% of Muslims are Sunnis (Indonesia, Malaysia, UAE, Morocco, Kurdistan, Turkey, Bosnia, Albania, Egypt, snoop dog, Mohammed Ali,…)
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ISIS: are not practicing Islam. Actually, their acts are condemned in Islam. In the Quran, there are 5% verses about rules of war. What ISIS does is, they take these verses out of their context. They apply “fight them until they surrender” on civilian societies (including opposing Muslim societies), not in real wars situations. So idiots, don’t give ISIS what they want and call them Muslims. This helps them in recruiting ignorant sh*theads.
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The classical it’s-never-enough-for-a-bitch argument: You are ISIS; No we’re against ISIS. Not enough, you didn’t condemn them; we did. Not enough, you didn’t fight them; we are fighting them. Not enough, you didn’t put enough efforts. … So please, let’s someone explain how the mightiest force on earth won over Vietnam, Korea, Somalia, Cuba, and the War on Drugs. I’ve heard it was so easy.
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On Halal food: the “Halal” stamp is a business by some crooks to get money for nothing. They adapted this from to the Kosher stamps business model. All vegetables, grains, fruits, nuts, eggs, milk, fish, and sea food are halal regardless of the source. Poultry and red meat are Halal if they are from a Muslim, Christian or Jewish countries/societies. Some ignorant Muslims are OCD about this; but this is not the general case. So how did we get from Brussel to Halal food? The path of hatred takes you to places
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On Sharia: actually Sharia is mostly the same as in the Bible and the Torah. It’s less strict than the Torah and the Old Testaments and stricter than the New Testaments. So either you attack all or none. Don’t take one in isolation of the others; like when referring to others you just safely say “all are sh*t”. Why no one talked about the young American girl who got spat on in a Community in Israel for not wearing “proper clothes”? or report on forcing women to ride at the back of the bus in the same Communities? You know you can’t.
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Mohammed marrying a young girl: unfortunately, the 60’s movement happened just in the 60’s. Don’t apply 20th century measures on ancient societies. Marrying young (7,8 , and above) for both sexes was common throughout the world. This was a common practice in Monarchies in Europe. All in all, this is not related to the religion, it’s a social practice. Now it’s totally not acceptable and rejected by all. It’s practiced in Yemen (by Muslims) and in Africa (by non-Muslims). In Yemen when it happens, other Muslim countries report it on the news and mention how disturbing it was. In several cases, the child boy or girl were saved from such a marriage by external Muslim interventions. In this era, this is not acceptable. 200 years ago and before, it was a different life for all. NOW, Can you focus more on teenage pregnancy in the US. At 85.8 per 1000 women, its highest in the world (another world first).
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Background: Some of the remarks made in here seem to carry hatred brought from 3rd world countries. Bias in such countries can be extreme and blinding. To the credit of some, their 3rd country background actually made them more tolerant and knowledgeable.
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Moderate Muslim: what does this even mean? Under which definition? Your definition is unqualified as you don’t know sh*t.
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Freedom of speech: so now it’s ok to call a black person a n#@#r, a women a c*@t, and a gay person a f*g ? Freedom of speech is an extremely elastic term in the Western world. This site has banned several members because of trivial reasons. CNN fired Rick Sanchez for remarks on Jews. Marlon Brandon was banned until he wept (literary) apologizing for his remarks on how Jews are controlling the US media (wtf?). In Europe and Canada, there are laws that criminalize whoever revises any count of the Holocaust. Even if you say 6 million is too much, 3 is more reasonable, you’ll be sentenced to jail or pay a fine (David Irving, JM Le-Pen, Jean Plantin, Germar Rudolph, Ernst Zundel,….). Charlie Hebdo fired one of their cartoonists for making a fun of Jews (before the Mohammed Cartoon). Some of you who made offensive remarks, might get fired from work if the IP attached to your posts in this Forum is from a work PC. This Forum can be classified as an: ad driven for-profit web site that provides financial training support services. Under this classification, many of the posts can cause legal troubles. Freedom of Speech is a heavily recycled shit. While protecting others from defamation, everyone can freely insult Muslims, Canadians, and French. Putting Muslims in the same list with Canadians and French is an insult by itself (am kidding, I luv the Canadians and French, I truly do)
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Abusive governments: the US has the highest number of inmates (in percentage and in absolute numbers). Not China, not India, not Iran, the US. So either you have a bad government, or bad citizens (I mentioned this in another post)
Bottom line, the World is full of sh*t. Sane people should get aligned against the insane
When that same viewpoint has driven nonstop blood shed for the past few decades it’s more than a slant. At what point does the sunni worldview stop being moderate and become more of a religious / ethnic supremecy view? I mean, statements in other threads alternate between GO KSA (read sunnis) and DOWN WITH EVIL IRAN (read shia).
Try whipping that insult around in front of someone with a mentally disabled kid and see if they disagree.
Great lack of a meaningful point there.
How exactly is ISIS (sharia law / beheadings / lack of womens rights, etc) all that worse than KSA? Just level of oil production and beheadings (advantage KSA). Are you going to point towards ISIS’s stricter Sharia based code? Seeems that would make them more Muslim. Terrorism? They just do it instead of funding it.
Well see, the thing is 1) we never were not at war with Cuba or Somalia, so in the light that the broader arab world has also done little against ISIS you are correct. And 2) with the war on Vietnam and Korea we actually deployed the majority of our forces into those countries (and were at war with ACTUAL countries), took heavy casualties and even instituted the draft (Vietnam). KSA, Turkey or any other major Muslim nation still have yet to actually deploy meaningful ground troops. Instead they keep sitting there quietly buying oil off of ISIS and thinking maybe the US will fly half way around the world to clean up the mess just so you can blame your problems on us again. So I mean, uh, there’s that. The lone exception here is Iran, which has made small troop deployments to aid in strategic fights.
Yeah, except for that thing where we don’t operate under old testament and Torah law. You know, because we’re civilized and not animals stuck in a prior millenia. You’re really starting to show your true colors here. And this is why the situation persists in the ME. You’re all still married to archaic beliefs and will not separate that system from government. Having a girl get spit on by a random civilian in Israel is even comparable to events like school girls being blocked inside a burning school (and dying) by government pigs because they weren’t wearing their head scarves (see KSA). Do you really want to go down this road or are you just that blind?
Those are teenagers with teenagers, not an old lying pedophile with a 9 year old. Gross.
Re: your diatribe on freedom of speech. We still have it. We don’t jail people for it. If they want to make decisions impacting their careers with private orgazations, that’s on them.
I think you are out of touch if you expect people to not believe in a worldview colored by their ethnic affiliation and geography. Being moderate isn’t about which tribe you support. The poster in question hasn’t advocated for Islamic nationalism in foreign states, hasn’t proposed jihad against infidels, hasn’t suggested levying a jizya, hasn’t expressed sympathy for any islamic terrorist movement (yes he is pro KSA but so are Ben Carson and Ted Cruz) etc etc so yes I think those are big points for moderation. At worst his comments may be of an apologist for some of the things advocated by Islam, but that’s about it.