I took a 1M trip to China several years ago, hit HK, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shanghai. It constantly irritates me to hear my coworkers talk down on the country, because they’re just regurgitating news propaganda and anecdotes from three decades ago. “Oh yeah, you want to live in a facist country”, etc. Which is retarded, yes, liberties are different, but none of the coworkers have been there. I mean, in China, one party runs the media, here, it’s two, etc. I never had the feeling where I couldn’t do something I wanted to when I was over there, the web was the same as far as I could tell. In another instance, a senior coworker from Europe was going on and on about how the food must suck in Asia, that Europe was so superior, till I pointed out that there’s more 3 star Michelin restaurants in Japan than France and several times more in Tokyo than in Paris. People need to get with the program and realize it’s not a competition with Asia, because Asia already locked in the win two decades ago. I love the US, but people need to drop the nationalize blinders sometimes and just realize what’s what.
Swan - nice job of buttering up our future Chinese masters.
I lived in China (Nanjing and Beijing Daxue (literally “big learn”, meaning university) and still have many Chinese friends and business contacts. Honestly, I feel it is much worse the other way. Speaking with many Chinese nationals, you get an extremely cocky attitude which is completely frustrating to me. Actually, many Chinese nationals’ viewpoints of unstoppable economic growth and prosperity in China in my mind reinforce the idea that we are seeing a bubble. Personally, I hope it is not a bubble as somebody has to keep world GDP chugging along, but many signs point to yes.
I’ll be in China in November, let me report back to you then.
What are your thoughts experiences on censorship / liberties having lived at both? I didn’t see any when I was there, but I’m not sure if it was just because it was hidden or I didn’t know where to look.
When you go there, go to an internet cafe and use the internet. If you try, you will see censorship. Let me give an example of some ridiculous stuff: Because of congestion in Beijing, you have permits for cars that allow you to drive on alternating days. So, one permit is for Monday, Wednesday, Friday and another is for Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. You can only have one permit per car. Because professionals want to drive every day, many affluent households buy two cars and get separate, alternating day permits for each. People cannot move to areas they want to. It is extremely difficult for somebody from the country, even if they have family in the city, to move into an urban center like Beijing or Shanghai. A successful M&A consultant I know with family based in Beijing going back many generations has an aunt and cousin that were moved to the farmland during the Great Leap Forward and they still cannot move back to Beijing. Related to the above point, there is “hukou” which is essentially apartheid between urban and rural dwellers. The above point finds its roots in hukou. I won’t go into it too much but suffice to say that rural land in China is still collectively owned and that people from the country cannot move to the city, which severely stunts the prospects of the majority of the population. This article is good for background: http://www.economist.com/node/18832092
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > When you go there, go to an internet cafe and use > the internet. If you try, you will see > censorship. Lol…I can’t send my college friend living in china videos such as this… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNuyDZevKrU censorship ain’t no joke over there
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > When you go there, go to an internet cafe and use > the internet. If you try, you will see > censorship. I did use the internet while in Beijing and Guangzhou, I didn’t come across censorship, but then again, I wasn’t looking for it. Obviously, I believe it exists, but I used the web for 3 weeks without noticing anything, so it’s not like it restricts your ability to function. And I’ not one to get caught up in semantics. > Let me give an example of some ridiculous stuff: > > Because of congestion in Beijing, you have permits > for cars that allow you to drive on alternating > days. So, one permit is for Monday, Wednesday, > Friday and another is for Tuesday, Thursday, > Saturday. You can only have one permit per car. > Because professionals want to drive every day, > many affluent households buy two cars and get > separate, alternating day permits for each. How is that ridiculous? They have issues with congestion as they’re among the world’s most populous countries and still developing infrastructure? It’s called logistics. In Denmark, taxes on autos often exceed the cost of the auto to reduce pollution. I’m losing my license for a month to the US facists because of a speeding ticket as they seem to think they can’t accommodate a bunch of lunatics on the free way. Similarly, China seems to think they can’t accommodate everyone at once on their roads. Apparently driving is not the right I thought it was. > People cannot move to areas they want to. It is > extremely difficult for somebody from the country, > even if they have family in the city, to move into > an urban center like Beijing or Shanghai. A > successful M&A consultant I know with family based > in Beijing going back many generations has an aunt > and cousin that were moved to the farmland during > the Great Leap Forward and they still cannot move > back to Beijing. Again, this is logistics and well being, not facism. Can you believe in the US, they will not let you drink or drive, or even ride without a seatbelt? Apparently it’s for the good of society! You can’t even smoke in most bars anymore, that my friend, is facist. Or simply managing the needs of society. Simply put, the infrastructure would be immediately overwhelmed and trade with the country would greatly diminish if it’s urban portals succumbed to squalor. I believe the goal is to reduce restrictions on movement as infrastructure develops. The US will take away your passport and thus your ability to travel abroad if you visit Cuba. That is simply based on politics, not even logistical necessity. Yes, in many ways we are more free here, but most cases it’s simply because we can afford to be. I actually like the way China is able to use it’s government to enforce restrictions that benefit the overall good without getting bogged down in nit picking, while the US Senate is playing chicken with an economic radioactive freight train on the debt limit because no one can set aside partisanship to do what’s best for the whole. > Related to the above point, there is “hukou” which > is essentially apartheid between urban and rural > dwellers. The above point finds its roots in > hukou. I won’t go into it too much but suffice to > say that rural land in China is still collectively > owned and that people from the country cannot move > to the city, which severely stunts the prospects > of the majority of the population. This article > is good for background: > http://www.economist.com/node/18832092 I believe most people would attribute the restrictions around hukou to the need to avoid overwhelming existing infrastructure that’s attracting external trade, rather than a form of apartheid. Yes, it may embody itself in various ill intended forms, but at the end, I believe it’s a transient logistical necessity.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I believe most people would attribute the > restrictions around hukou to the need to avoid > overwhelming existing infrastructure that’s > attracting external trade, rather than a form of > apartheid. Yes, it may embody itself in various > ill intended forms, but at the end, I believe it’s > a transient logistical necessity. Easy for you to say. Try being a disenfranchised farmer with no hope of upward mobility whose family is making bank in a major urban center, all because Mao sent your grandmother to bumblef@ck many years ago. The reason they are so strict on this stuff is twofold. As you point out, they don’t want country bumpkins overrunning the cities. Also, China has a massive population on a limited amount of arable land so the government views it as necessary to control the production of food and retain adequate labor for that production. You assert that this is “transient.” Why would the government give this up voluntarily? Edit: after seeing your edited posts I can see that we will get nowhere in this discussion. You are more interested in winning the argument than in an exchange of ideas. Just one point, on the car front the ridiculous thing is that many people that can afford a car in Beijing can afford two cars, so this regulation really just increases the amount of cars in the city. If you went to Beijing 10 years ago you would see many more people using public transit or riding a bike, which is where most “developed” nations are trying to get back to. So, in that sense I would say that the very need of the regulation on cars in Beijing is evidence that the government has mismanaged the economic expansion, despite their belief in the superiority of a pseudo command and control economy and powerful government.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I took a 1M trip to China several years ago, hit > HK, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shanghai. It constantly > irritates me to hear my coworkers talk down on the > country, because they’re just regurgitating news > propaganda and anecdotes from three decades ago. > “Oh yeah, you want to live in a facist country”, > etc. Which is retarded, yes, liberties are > different, but none of the coworkers have been > there. I mean, in China, one party runs the > media, here, it’s two, etc. I never had the > feeling where I couldn’t do something I wanted to > when I was over there, the web was the same as far > as I could tell. People are mostly brainwashed; they just spit out silliness someone else told them. As you say China is different than the USA! Wow shocking! However I got the feeling that there was *more* freedom not less. Freedom isn’t some words in a book that say you have a right to do whatever, it is something *inside the people* that they feel. The people I met in SH were 10 times more fun and free than most repressed corporatized Americans, and that freedom isn’t granted to you externally, you just take it. The same old Americans arguing about how they are sooo developed and everyone else is an idiot is sooo boring.
America is in some ways a very repressive system. They don’t treat you like an adult in America. They won’t let you have a high dive at your pool, because the lawyers said so. We can’t have tits on TV because, everybody gets offended. You can’t buy beer until your 21 and everybody cards you even when you are 30 years old. Everything has consequences in America. You are liable for a total stranger falling and slipping on your front porch. Any minor crime or misdemeanor can follow you pretty much forever. That D you got in Freshmen Calculus haunts you whenever you apply for a new job. Pretty much anyone at any time can claim that you are a sexist, a racist, or pedophile and ruin your public image overnight. You can’t even copulate with a hotel maid without losing your entire career sometimes. Cops can shoot you if they believe you are reaching for something that may be a gun. Everything is very orderly in America and because of that, inherently repressive. Developing countries, in their disorganized chaos, can feel far more liberating to some people for some people. I am one of those people. For those of you that find chaos unbearable might not see it that way. The cool thing about America however is that we have at least the sense of upward mobility and equality. The equality thing is a myth, we don’t actually have equality, people with lots of wealth are actually much more important than the average citizen and buy influence way more than the average citizen. People who form unions or caucuses have much more power than people who prefer to remain independent. But we at least feel that we have the right, as a citizen, to speak and complain about our government to our hearts content. However, if you do something politically incorrect you can expect a lot of doors to close on you, so while Westboro Baptist Church can demonstrate all they want, I bet they will have a hard time finding employment at Goldman Sachs. I do believe we do have much greater upward mobility in the West as compared to Asia. I have seen it with my own eyes here. But that is just my observation. In Asia your life is largely ruled by what your father does for work. Bosses traditionally wont sit down with you and go over your KPI’s and ask you about your career goals and how they can help you achieve them. They usually just, if you are lucky, write you a check once a month and think you should feel grateful about that. In Asia most people don’t grow up feeling like they are unique snowflakes. If you have the bad manners not to be borne into a family of wealthy and educated Asians, or at least a family working tooth and nail to pay for your education, than you are probably going to end up doing the same sort of work that your Dad did. As for as the rural populations go in these countries, the Government has no choice but to treat them as almost a different species and this is inherently unfair. America loves a good Horatio Alger story, and while they happen infrequently everywhere, they do happen enough in America to have some credence. America rewards talent and opportunity better than any place that I have been to.
One difference I have seen is that connections are even more important in China than the US. In the US, if you work very hard and produce results, you have a real chance of moving up the corporate ladder or win business. Connections help a lot, but in China they are almost a necessity in certain circles. Children of politicians and high-ranking officials in China create businesses designed to help foreign firms penetrate these inner circles solely to get business they otherwise can’t get.
And Cuba has some great beaches and really cool old cars!
ChickenTikka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > America is in some ways a very repressive system. > They don’t treat you like an adult in America. > They won’t let you have a high dive at your pool, > because the lawyers said so. We can’t have tits > on TV because, everybody gets offended. You can’t > buy beer until your 21 and everybody cards you > even when you are 30 years old. Everything has > consequences in America. You are liable for a > total stranger falling and slipping on your front > porch. Any minor crime or misdemeanor can follow > you pretty much forever. That D you got in > Freshmen Calculus haunts you whenever you apply > for a new job. Pretty much anyone at any time can > claim that you are a sexist, a racist, or > pedophile and ruin your public image overnight. > You can’t even copulate with a hotel maid without > losing your entire career sometimes. Cops can > shoot you if they believe you are reaching for > something that may be a gun. Everything is very > orderly in America and because of that, inherently > repressive. Developing countries, in their > disorganized chaos, can feel far more liberating > to some people for some people. I am one of those > people. For those of you that find chaos > unbearable might not see it that way. > > The cool thing about America however is that we > have at least the sense of upward mobility and > equality. The equality thing is a myth, we don’t > actually have equality, people with lots of wealth > are actually much more important than the average > citizen and buy influence way more than the > average citizen. People who form unions or > caucuses have much more power than people who > prefer to remain independent. But we at least > feel that we have the right, as a citizen, to > speak and complain about our government to our > hearts content. However, if you do something > politically incorrect you can expect a lot of > doors to close on you, so while Westboro Baptist > Church can demonstrate all they want, I bet they > will have a hard time finding employment at > Goldman Sachs. > > I do believe we do have much greater upward > mobility in the West as compared to Asia. I have > seen it with my own eyes here. But that is just > my observation. In Asia your life is largely > ruled by what your father does for work. Bosses > traditionally wont sit down with you and go over > your KPI’s and ask you about your career goals and > how they can help you achieve them. They usually > just, if you are lucky, write you a check once a > month and think you should feel grateful about > that. In Asia most people don’t grow up feeling > like they are unique snowflakes. If you have the > bad manners not to be borne into a family of > wealthy and educated Asians, or at least a family > working tooth and nail to pay for your education, > than you are probably going to end up doing the > same sort of work that your Dad did. As for as > the rural populations go in these countries, the > Government has no choice but to treat them as > almost a different species and this is inherently > unfair. America loves a good Horatio Alger story, > and while they happen infrequently everywhere, > they do happen enough in America to have some > credence. America rewards talent and opportunity > better than any place that I have been to. I thought this was a good post. Couldn’t agree more with the first paragraph. Everytime I visit other countries, even Europe, the atmosphere is much more free because as you said, you’re not regulated like a child. The US has gotten increasingly boring.
free Ai Weiwei!!
I liked Chicken Tikka’s post. I don’t agree with every detail, but I think it shows a good awareness of perception vs. reality. I also want to point out that censorship is hard to see sometimes until you need it. Like when there’s suddenly no food around, because the news never reported that there’s a famine in the country. You don’t necessarily miss what you don’t know isn’t there. I think travelers notice censorship most if they are looking for porn, which I believe is still censored in China, and certainly any attempt to look for prostitution online. Most westerners don’t go to China and say “Hmmm… I want to look up the truth on Tienanmen Square in 1990,” but you’ll find that pretty scrubbed. I believe that there are also two levels of censorship. If you are using the internet in hotels that are frequently travelled by tourists, you may get the “light” version of censorship, which is designed to make foreigners and particularly westerners feel that nothing is wrong. If you go to a chinese-dominant cyber-cafe, which, due to language constraints, most westerners won’t, you’ll get the stricter stuff.
I didn’t realize it was a discussion of US versus PRC, I was just talking about PRC in and of itself. Of course, there is ridiculous stuff in the the US as well. CTikka’s post was interesting, but the use of “Asian” to describe a multitude of countries when his experience is clearly mostly in India is probably not appropriate.
That’s a pretty bold assertion saying people complaining about censorship in China are looking for porn. I lived there and while I wasn’t overly-frustrated with the censorship, it blocked out Youtube and Facebook all the time and Gmail was hit-and-miss. Spoke with friends over there during the feared jasmine rebellion a few months back and they couldn’t even use the characters for “tomorrow” on the various blogging and social networking sites. Seems a little excessive.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think travelers notice censorship most if they > are looking for porn, which I believe is still > censored in China, and certainly any attempt to > look for prostitution online. Most westerners > don’t go to China and say “Hmmm… I want to look > up the truth on Tienanmen Square in 1990,” but > you’ll find that pretty scrubbed. Or if you are attempting to do research on the Chinese economy or political system.