Purealpha, There is nothing to replace greed as their central value.
Right, and the European debt crisis was driven by philanthropic ambitions…
greengrape Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Sitting behind the comfort of your > > keyboard, you can spew as much hate as you want > > without consequences. Most would never dare say > > the same in somone’s presence. The huge number > of > > trolls that hound blog sites and message boards > > and get their kicks by riling others up is > another > > problem. > > > > Things seem to be getting worse because with > > blogs, twitter, facebook, youtube, message > boards > > etc. such hate filled rhetoric is everywhere on > > the internet. There is no solution to this > other > > than excercising civility and rational > discourse > > in tv, radio and cyberspace. > > I got to say. It sounds like you’re describing > yourself. Chickencr@p. I don’t go around advocating shooting/ murder of elected officials or people that I disagree with.
but you do: “hound blog sites and message boards and get their kicks by riling others” and you certainly don’t partake in “excercising civility and rational discourse” Unless you consider accusing a whole party and former president of murdering American’s for their own personal ends as civil discourse? Or painting the tea party as a bunch of murderers because of your desperate need to find some connection between one lone nut bag and a political movement that you despise. You know, when Fort Hood happened, we were all urged to not jump to conclusions, which was sound advice. Too bad people like you can’t help themselves, particularly when the conclusion being jumped at confirms your own deeply held biases. You really lack self-awareness marcus.
Sarah Palin: ‘Pundits should not manufacture a blood libel’ Now she is usiing anti-semitic rhetoric as well. She is acting like the other crazy Ann Coulter. I mean, if she is the self purpoted leader of the Tea Party and is using such disgusting terms, isn’t the Tea Party complicit by condoning this woman’s antics? http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/sarah-palin-responds-pundits-s.html?hpid=topnews And I please don’t bring in the fort hood massacre into this discussion. I am no fan of fanatical muslims either - I despise them equally. That is just another right wing talking point to deflect attention from the issue at hand.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > just another right wing talking point to deflect > attention from the issue at hand. What exactly is the issue here? I’ve been following this thread hoping it wouldn’t be so hopelessly predictable… Is the issue Sarah Palin? I don’t think so. I don’t care for the woman either, but if anyone really thinks she had anything to do with this tragedy, even indirectly, then you’re a nutjob too. You may not be the violent type, but you’re f’ing crazy. Is the issue those ads with the crosshairs? I don’t think it should have taken an event like this to see those were in poor taste. But, again, does anyone really think those ads facilitated this? And, again, you’re insane if you answered yes. Is the issue gun control? That’s a reasonable discussion I think. Naturally we won’t solve the issue, or even change anyone’s mind, but it’s a relevant topic given the circumstances. Really the main issue is finding a scapegoat. Unfortunately, people are losing sight on who’s to blame - Jared Lougher. He’s a violent whack job that probably would have done something like this even if Sarah Palin had never been born, no negative political ads or talk shows existed, and even if handguns were outlawed. His girlfriend dumped him in high school, he went crazy and did lots of drugs. It’s not a complicated story.
I seriously doubt too many people actually believe that this guy saw Sarah Palin’s little target picture thing and said to himself, “Hey, that’s a really good idea.” It’s becoming more and more apparent that the guy’s motives had nothing to do with Rush Limbaugh or Sara Palin or Glenn Beck. But, directly related or not, it’s started the conversation that maybe we need to be a little more civil in our disagreements. Maybe putting gun sights on politicians is really not a cute or funny thing in any context.
Sweep the Leg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > just another right wing talking point to > deflect > > attention from the issue at hand. > > What exactly is the issue here? I’ve been > following this thread hoping it wouldn’t be so > hopelessly predictable… > > Is the issue Sarah Palin? I don’t think so. I > don’t care for the woman either, but if anyone > really thinks she had anything to do with this > tragedy, even indirectly, then you’re a nutjob > too. You may not be the violent type, but you’re > f’ing crazy. > > Is the issue those ads with the crosshairs? I > don’t think it should have taken an event like > this to see those were in poor taste. But, again, > does anyone really think those ads facilitated > this? And, again, you’re insane if you answered > yes. > > Is the issue gun control? That’s a reasonable > discussion I think. Naturally we won’t solve the > issue, or even change anyone’s mind, but it’s a > relevant topic given the circumstances. > > Really the main issue is finding a scapegoat. > Unfortunately, people are losing sight on who’s to > blame - Jared Lougher. He’s a violent whack job > that probably would have done something like this > even if Sarah Palin had never been born, no > negative political ads or talk shows existed, and > even if handguns were outlawed. His girlfriend > dumped him in high school, he went crazy and did > lots of drugs. It’s not a complicated story. The issue here is not the Gunman. The issue here is a lot of the rhetoric we are hearing from some elements of the tea party that is fostering an atmosphere of hate and violence. When you use statememts like “don’t retreat, reload”, put a map with crosshairs, or state "Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly.” Or look at how the late term abortion specialist Dr. Tiller was murdered right after certain incendiary statements by Bill O’Reilly, describing the doctor as “Tiller the Baby Killer” and “a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida.” “This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao’s China, Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union,” said O’Reilly on one show. Can you imagine what William F. Buckley would have made of “Don’t retreat- reload!” – especially now that she continues to use that lovely line, when reloading would have killed everybody in the Tucson parking lot? Such a hate filled climate is ripe for pushing crazy people like Loughner over the edge and this may be just the beginning of such incidents. People were just calling to tone down the over the top statements, that is all - at least keep the violent bits out. This is not about the Republican Party at all. Its about the fringe elements that seem to have taken center stage, making Bush seem like a hippy liberal.
You can try to explain it all you want but all it comes down to is that this dude is crazy. This is the reason there will always be Kennedy assassination conspiracies. One of the things Taleb does well in his books is touching on the fact that the human brain is great at thinking it can find trends and explinations even in cases where there clearly are none. We can handle random events and have to try to explain them by citing things after the fact.
Two candidates endorsed by Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Sharon Angle and supported by advertising produced by her political action committee made some statements which bear upon this issue. Michelle Bachmann said in March 2009: “I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us ‘having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,’ and the people – we the people – are going to have to fight back hard if we’re not going to lose our country.” Sharon Angle, republican (tea party) candidate for Senate last year said some things BEFORE Palin has endorsed and campaigned for her. She told radio talk host Lars Larson in January 2010: “Our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. In fact, Thomas Jefferson said it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that’s not where we’re going, but you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies.” In the same month she told talk radio host Bill Manders: “I’m hoping that we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies, I hope that the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.” Harry Reid was whom she would latter challenge in the Nevada Senate race. In May 2010, she told the Reno Gazette-Journal: “The nation is arming. What are they arming for if it isn’t that they are so distrustful of their government? They’re afraid they’ll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways. That’s why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?” Their ‘Mama Grizzly’ Sarah who’s political action committee put cross hairs on Giffords district now says it is a '‘blood libel’ to point out her actions and the statements of persons she endorsed for public office. Has not Palin abused the term ‘blood libel’ which refers to a totally abhorrent lie used to target Jews, by trying to use it as a smear against those who point to the words of politicians she supports and the coordinated actions of her political action committee in support of their campaigns?
I’m pretty sure she didn’t even know what blood libel was, let alone write that apology piece. It also bugs me that she is known as the tea party face…that’s a media distortion. Before, what, spring 2009 when the tea party surfaced, you never really heard her espousing those views. She’s completely unoriginal in her own right and is only taking advantage of an opportunity.
yeah, I can come up with similar comments and rhetoric made by those on the left (CFABLACKBELT posted the obvious ones from Obama), but I am not going to paint with a broad brush as is your simplistic preference. The fact is that violent metaphors have and probably always will be a part of political discussion. I mean even the word “campaign” is military metaphor. This shouldn’t be surprising though given that government is largely about controlling the use of force - to both arrest criminals and also to deter the use of unauthorized force by threat of punishment/imprisonment. One of the great triumphs of democracy is that almost all violence in the political system is metaphorical and not literal except when it comes to a few deranged maniacs. So, we could have a good civil discussion about this, or you can just simply continue to use this tragedy as an opportunity to advance your own political agenda and congratulate yourself for yet again proving how evil everyone on the “right” is. My guess is you’ll choose the latter. (By the way, does it matter to you one bit that the shooter expressed opinions that Iraq and Afghanistan were illegal wars, among other more left leaning views? This hardly fits your stereotype of right winger does it? Oh, but those facts don’t support your premise, so better to just pretend they don’t exist.)
Today has been set aside to honor the victims of the Tucson massacre. And Sarah Palin has apparently decided she’s one of them.
dont hurt em Marcus, dont hurt em
NYCGorilla Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > dont hurt em Marcus, dont hurt em hahaha - he’s not, he’s side-stepping every issue directed at him. his combination of copy/paste and Palin-topic-change tactis may make this a lot longer than it needs to be. he may be the most qualified democratic candidate for 2012 - we’ve already had two POTUS with zero related or qualifying experience.
Chi Paul Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > yeah, I can come up with similar comments and > rhetoric made by those on the left (CFABLACKBELT > posted the obvious ones from Obama), but I am not > going to paint with a broad brush as is your > simplistic preference. > > The fact is that violent metaphors have and > probably always will be a part of political > discussion. I mean even the word “campaign” is > military metaphor. This shouldn’t be surprising > though given that government is largely about > controlling the use of force - to both arrest > criminals and also to deter the use of > unauthorized force by threat of > punishment/imprisonment. One of the great > triumphs of democracy is that almost all violence > in the political system is metaphorical and not > literal except when it comes to a few deranged > maniacs. > > So, we could have a good civil discussion about > this, or you can just simply continue to use this > tragedy as an opportunity to advance your own > political agenda and congratulate yourself for yet > again proving how evil everyone on the “right” > is. > > My guess is you’ll choose the latter. > > (By the way, does it matter to you one bit that > the shooter expressed opinions that Iraq and > Afghanistan were illegal wars, among other more > left leaning views? This hardly fits your > stereotype of right winger does it? Oh, but those > facts don’t support your premise, so better to > just pretend they don’t exist.) I am not sidestepping the issue. I was talking about some of the TP leaders and you want to talk about the gunman and are trying to depict him as some sort of liberal while all evidence points to the contrary. He is described as a nihilist. Somone who favors the gold standard and very anti-government and hated immigrants. Very proficient with a 9mm pistol. Dosen’t sound like any liberal I know. Also please don’t put words in my mouth. I am not saying people on the right are evil. I was just indicating that SOME people in the TP have co-opted the original intent of smaller government and less taxes, which I am in favor of myself and twisted it into some sort of fundamentalist hate filled movement. Won’t you agree? Anyways I do realize she is making $$$ by spewing her bile just like Beck, Limbaugh and others do. Looks like she does wants to run for president as well.
>>> want to talk about the gunman and are trying to depict him as some sort of liberal while all evidence points to the contrary. You really think that all my comments were an effort to try and paint the gunman as a liberal?!?!?! Unbelievable. I couldn’t have been more clear that I do not think in the broad generalizations that you do. My point was that this guy had no coherent political philosophy and he did what he did because he is maniac. I only pointed out the left leaning comments of his to demonstrate how you willfully ignore any facts that conflict with your worldview. And all you can do is accuse me of trying to paint him as a liberal? I rest my case. As for the TP, it is hardly monolithic, there are so many competing factions with only the commonality of being disenchanted with the current two parties. But, since you seem to only think in stereotypes, it’s not surprising that you missed this nuance.
Chi Paul Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > >>> want to talk about the gunman and are trying > to depict him as some sort of liberal while all > evidence points to the contrary. > > You really think that all my comments were an > effort to try and paint the gunman as a > liberal!!! Unbelievable. I couldn’t have been > more clear that I do not think in the broad > generalizations that you do. My point was that > this guy had no coherent political philosophy and > he did what he did because he is maniac. > > I only pointed out the left leaning comments of > his to demonstrate how you willfully ignore any > facts that conflict with your worldview. And all > you can do is accuse me of trying to paint him as > a liberal? > > I rest my case. > > As for the TP, it is hardly monolithic, there are > so many competing factions with only the > commonality of being disenchanted with the current > two parties. But, since you seem to only think in > stereotypes, it’s not surprising that you missed > this nuance. Well I misunderstood your comment about the Iraq war - I already admitted my rash judgement in associating the shooter with the TP. Again I am not saying the TO is monolothic, and can empathize with being disenchanted with both parties. Just stating that the ones who have declared themselves as the torch bearers of the movement are perhaps not the best representative and their statements are often quite inflammatory.
MP you’re losing it dude. You’re not even addressing valid criticisms of your thought process nor are you engaging in discussion anymore. I’m conservative, but actually enjoyed some of your topics before this because they facilitated discussion and addressed point made by others. Because of your focus on teaparty connection to this, you’re just coming off crazy. Youre not even addressing Chicago paulie, which is a good thing for your mental framework because he’s lighting up your arguments and highlighting how ridiculous you’re being. I hope this is temporary and that you haven’t been changed by this horrific event. Life is short buddy - too short for all this hate. Take care sir.
^ Well, jcole, I do admit I was quite a bit shaken in the light of this event - I have a relative who is a politically active democrat in a red state and now am fearful for her safety. I harbor no hate for anyone but would like to see more civility in the country from all sides. I will be ok in a week or two - better to lay this topic to rest now. Forget the TP, real problems being ignored in all political back and forth are easy access to guns and mental health related issues.