I avoid your question buddy because they have no relation to this issue. USA and Israel are not the only bad guys. The Russians did some fucked up things, the white Rhode government who slaughtered negros in South Africa because they had the audacity to ask for equal rights were fucked up as were the Belgians who refused to leave the Congo till they were chased out by rampaging mobs.
Do we condone the shit behaviour like this because others conduct themselves in equally shitty ways elsewhere? No we do not. If you would like to discuss those issues, feel free to start a seperate thread and we can discuss it there. Keep in mind we might actually learn something seeing as there are a couple of russians here.
Look I have no axe to grind, this story has been played out numerous times and it ends well when one side rises above. When a jew himself is saying the same things according to what people are saying world over maybe it’s time to re evaluate.
All i’m saying is what Israel is doing is ridiculous. When Israel kills a refugee population and it is termed as genocide yet escape with merely a slap on the back because of the backing of one nation, we threaten the very credibility of the UN which is a noble concept. In a rapidly emerging multipolar world the UN is probably one of the concepts we must fight for to prevent it from going down the league of nations route. One vote, one voice. I digress.
Anyway this says Palestine must be free, to destroy Hamas, to correct an injustice, to give the palesteniens hope to build a better future it all comes down to that. Give them their homeland
No, you do have an axe to grind as you only selectively focus on one population and one victim group, while loudly touting the rise of Russia. (EAST IS COMING BABY).
There’s a difference between having no incentives to kill civilians and taking enough precautions to avoid killing civilians. There’s a reason Israel is isolated on the international stage.
When your closest ally had this to say yesterday, instead of defending the indefensible, maybe you should take a step back and understand why the rest of the world is appalled at the disproportionate response and stop playing the innocent victim:
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Washington, D.C. August 3, 2014
“The United States is appalled by today’s disgraceful shelling outside an UNRWA school in Rafah sheltering some 3,000 displaced persons, in which at least ten more Palestinian civilians were tragically killed. The coordinates of the school, like all UN facilities in Gaza, have been repeatedly communicated to the Israeli Defense Forces. We once again stress that Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties. UN facilities, especially those sheltering civilians, must be protected, and must not be used as bases from which to launch attacks. The suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians. We call for a full and prompt investigation of this incident as well as the recent shelling of other UNRWA schools.”
From Paris to London to Berlin, the response is unanimous condemning Israel’s actions. The right to defend yourself doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you feel like doing.
Who is “they?” You’re pointing to an incident that happened before the vast majority of Israeli soldiers were even born.
Again, if genocide is the goal why doesn’t Israel destroy all of Gaza in hours? Why do they drop leaflets? Why do they call civilians and wait to bomb a home until they evacuate?
Agreed; however, we don’t know enough about the intricacies of the IDF operation to say whether or not they are taking enough precautions. Let’s just say that giving advance warning of bombings is more than most other countries (and certainly Hamas) would do. Furthermore, the civilian:combatant causalty rate is not far off from many major conflicts (you can look this up, it’s true) which is notably given that Gaza is one of the most densely populated land masses in the world and that Hamas uses human shields.
When you warn people to evacuate and they evacuate in mass to the only place they think is safe (UN school) and then bomb the school to the stone age because you claim there are terrorists shooting near there, you are doing a disservice to these people and actually doing more civilan damage then letting people stay in their homes.
And I agree with the international community. Terrorists striking near the only safe harbor available does not justify putting at risk the lives of thousands of innocent people.
You said Israel have no incentive to kill civilians. I agree.
So why did they go after a refugee population that had surrendered then? Genocide is not the goal, what happened was an act of genocide. War crimes for which Israel escaped with a cuff on the ear when danger had passed. Don’t even get me started on the cluster bombs they dropped in Lebanon, We’ve been through all of this.
Anyway i’m done. When a jew who was born in the tail end of the Nazi regime himself starts to question the actions of the Israeli government it is safe to say the tide has started to turn.
Never negotiate with scum like Hamas but we can never negotiate with the moderate palesteniens till they have a voice. The quickest way for that to happen is to declare at least the West Bank a free entity. One such moderate known as Abbas backed by the Americans is waiting for that chance.
Again, they didn’t bomb the shelters to the stone age (and we all know, they could have if they wanted to). From what I recall, 10-20 civilians died in the collateral damage to the UN shelters, out of the thousands who were in the shelter at the time.
Ok, so what’s the alternative? Send in ground units to a place that’s booby-trapped up the wazoo and leave them susceptible to ambushes by terrorists who literally will try everything to kill you, including wearing an IDF uniform and pretending to be a friendly? When the “international community” has some skin in the game, I’ll give their remarks some credence.
Israel could decide to engage in defending its nation through means that don’t create a disproportionate death toll upon innocent people. It’s immoral for Hamas to use human shields and immoral for Israel to bomb human shields.
^Why are they enemy combatants? If the local Hamas guys decide to start storing missiles in your daughter’s kindergarten and order her to to stay there, is she a combatant? You’d be okay with Israel dropping a few bombs no?
I am a little bit confused by this thread. Anyone who is judging Israel cannot judge israel in isolation. Israel policies should be compared to policies of other developed nations such as US, Japan, Germany, UK, France ect.
So… isildurr, comparatively, how is Israel operational efficiency?
Isildurr - just like how you can find it in your heart to ignore, forgive, or forget about far more brutal and sadistic operations carried out by nations like Russia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Myanmar or Rwanda etc I think you should do the same for Israel. Your hatred of Israel’s actions is primarily driven by the fact that they are a US-propped state, so I think your energies are perhaps best directed towards other things about the US that you can blast.
I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but let the Muslim world worry about their Palestinian brothers, you should worry about your own tribe (just like everyone else does).
This makes little to no sense as you try to codense something into 2 lines like you’ve just recieved an epiphany that has led to something profound when in reality your analogy is idiotic to say the least and i’m sure you are a smart person.
Last I checked since the disbanding of colonial empires neither Japan, Germany nor France have built illegal settlements on someone else’s land nor did they attack a defenseless refugee population
Good grief. What utter garbage.
If that’s your viewpoint then maybe you should look at the jews who are condemning the actions of their own government. Jews within Israel and Jews outside or are they Palestine apologists too?
And perhaps instead of deraling the thread into different conflicts or trying to figure out what ‘positions’ people hold you could put the effort into creating a constructive argument on how to fix the issue and how to bring people to the discussion table. Trying to create a 6’th graders argument saying but even they did it really isn’t helping anybody.
Needless to say this includes LTTE etc.
Perhaps you should spend more time reading instead of putting words in peoples mouths. My main gripe with Israel is not who is propping them up, it is that they seem to be above the rule of international law and that nothing they are doing now will lead to a long term solution.
Yes, a significant number of Jews are Palestine apologists. You’re not familiar with the dynamics of the Jewish community. Just like in India there are Hindus that sympathize with all things leftist like Maoism and Kashmir independence (and Palestine), Jews are the same way, if not more so given their highly educated upper class liberal leanings.
Last time i checked Russia and US divided Germany after WW2 victory. I forgot, who won 67 war? Also, all of those countries sent troops to Iraq and Afhanistan, pretty much occupying those countries.
