GO USA, GO!!!!!!!!

Water Cooler
#121

Asking Hamas to come to a ceasefire now will not help because they have nothing to loose They have no bargaining chip, this is what they thrive on. When a palestine blood spills and media covers it they draw media attention to it and provokes sympathy. When Israel bombs Gaza they just gime Hamas more martyrs.

No, lift the blockade, engage the citizens, educate them, show them a better way and Hamas will loose what little support they have. Build a better future and turn the other cheek when one of those pathetic plastic missiles escapes the iron dome. Gandhi showed it could be done when he overthrew the chains of coloniolism and the british fucking empire by turning the other cheek.

Anyway, i’m done. There’s nothing left to say but one of the greatest men who walked this planet Mandela said it best.

_ ‘We know we can never be free till the palesteniens have their freedom’- Nelson Mandela _

This is the same man who people that time were told was a terrorist by Margaret Thatcher. One went on to become an international icon and face for democracy, the other jeered on her own deathbed by her countrymen.

Normal palesteniens want the same things we do, the chance for a better future. We need to give it to them and they will lay down their guns. I hope we see the Palestine flag fly high in our lifetime.

#122

I’m sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, but as an infidel, I need to be very selective when it comes to backing a cause.

#123

Spoken like someone who fears something they don’t really understand.

While radical islamism is a problem and certainly a manifestation of islam itself it can and has been combatted with education and wealth. Turkey and Indonesia are solid democracies and the 150 million peaceful muslims in India and a similar number in Bangaladesh show it is possible.

Tanks and guns don’t help. We know this, the americans lost the ‘war on terror’ just like they lost the ‘war on drugs’. Hopefully they’ve learnt from those mistakes

#124

Indonesia is an Islamic state. India is a joke when it comes to basic human rights and Mexico is marginal at best. When you get a Germany or other human rights leader on side, then talk about human rights. The reason they abstain is because they largely agree with my view: Palestians need help, Israel should show restraint, but all country’s have the right to defend their people. Also, I meant to say Chile not Child. Sorry I’m on my phone. Chile in my view is the only real human rights leader that voted with Palestinians.

#125

Israel-Palestine a classical example of stockholm syndrome?

Source:http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/stockholm-syndrome-again/

In an interview with TOI’s David Horovitz, Col. Richard Kemp, British Commander in Afghanistan, observes that “…Lack of empathy for Israel in some quarters, certainly from Britain…stems partly from a desire to avoid what’s going on…supporting Israel, when most parts of the Muslim world oppose it, is going to be unpopular given the UK’s increasingly influential Muslim community.”

Kemp goes on to say that a military victory, even demilitarization, could be difficult if not impossible given the skill at which Hamas has been able to jockey itself into world opinion. Time is on the side of Hamas, with plenty of civilians to sacrifice as the world grows increasingly intolerant of Israel’s offensive due to these civilian casualties.

Ultimately, Kemp concludes, the best that can be hoped for is a sustained truce requiring unending monitoring by Israel and the West (should the West choose to help, which he has doubts about in the long run).

Hamas and Fatah are ideologically driven to mark their time and seek further advantage against Israel.

Current demand for an independent Palestinian State is just one step in the process of completely securing all of Israel, placing it into the hands of both Fatah and Hamas.

The same ideological and emotional forces that are behind this conflict are the same forces that were driving the Palestinians before the “occupation” of the West Bank.

Palestinians tried this with Jordan in the fall of 1970 (Black Sunday) to secure political dominance. They failed, and now concentrate their efforts on ousting Israel.

With a full quarter of the world’s population being Muslim, the tide is changing on the stage of public opinion.

If the Palestinian political and military arms do win the psychological war against Israel, which thus far has been where the real winners and losers of past conflicts have been, it will be due to the aid provided by the West through “fear and identification with the aggressor” which are the underlying dynamics of the Stockholm Syndrome. Horror is a powerful tool.

#126

You haven’t visited the places you speak about, yet you are so confident with your opinions based on the hollow sound bites from your local media outlet (CBC)? You are nothing more than an armchair political analyst with your surface level commentary about these issues. My mother always used to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but nobody gives a damn if the opinion is uninformed which is certainly the case with you. The only thing worse in my books than a bloodthirsty zionist, is an uninformed zionist supporter making uterrances such as “Israel has an absolute right to self-defense” and “I am anti-terrorism”. What you can’t even realize since you are so foolish is that you are supporting the largest known terrorist regime on earth when you make idiotic comments like that. Apologies as well about mistakenly believing you were in Toronto or in Treasury, I just remember that it wasn’t anything remotely related to front office.

If anything, as a fellow Canadian that has lived abroad for an extended period with expat experience in Europe and the Middle East, the advice I can give you is to actually go out there and form your own opinions from first hand experiences instead of wasting time on AF instead of in the real world. Go volunteer at a Palestinian refugee camp in the West Bank or Gaza when things settle down, and let us know what your experience was like which would be much more of a value add than your paragraphs of useless text paraphrasing what you just heard on CBC. Maybe after you see people starving to death because the IDF blocking off incoming aid and food, little kids becoming orphans because their parents are getting blown to pieces by unprovoked Israeli military aggression, and other great stuff will you change your tone.

#127

Tvdloo has to be an angry Arab

#128

69% of the total number of members in the UN had moved to recognize Palestine as a state. Total population of the countries roughly equal to 80% of the worlds population.

From Algeria to Malaysia, Madagascar to Poland, Nigeria to Hungary and Uruguay to Thailand. The truth will always come out.

Israeli soldier on red lines being crossed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-an-exsoldier-in-the-israeli-defense-forces-ive-seen-how-shockingly-we-treat-palestinians-9607267.html

Superb website, IDF soldiers themselves talking about some of the things they’ve seen and done.

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization

#129

^ I don’t agree with the blockade of Gaza at all. The treatment of those refugees is abhorant. That doesn’t change my stance on rocket attacks. And yes I’m an armchair analyst. As much as anyone else here (except you who has apparently volunteered in refuge camps). EDIT: That was directed at tvldor. To the comments about IDF actions: any war crimes are wrong no matter who is behind them. If members of thr IDF are committing crimes, then they should be held to account. Otherwise there is no moral high ground.

#130

That’s a good Canadian, when all else fails backpedal on your original position in favour of political correctness.

#131

You cannot claim wanting a peace deal while at the same time illegally expanding settlements. I don’t blame people for doubting Israel’s intentions. Subsidizing people to live there and handing over housing at bargain prices on territories that isn’t even yours is adding insult to injury, arrogant and publically humiliating your adversary when they are already on their knees. I won’t even go into the land, sea and air blockade in Gaza.

A lot of people forget the years leading up to Israel’s foundation. They remember the Holocaust (which was horrific) but conveniently forget the terrorist tactics used to achieve their goal of obtaining a country. Israeli terrorists (especially Irgun) lauched deadly attacks against Palestinian Arabs and British soldiers. From assassinating government officials to taking and murdering hostages to blowing up government offices with civilian employees and visitors inside to booby trapped suitcases to booby trapped cars to flogging of innocent civilians to letter bombs to postal parcel bombs. There were close to 100 terrorist acts in less than 2 decades. The Irgun believed that any means necessary to establish the Jewish State of Israel, including terrorism, was justifiable. Does it ring a bell? The Irgun were the Hamas of the 1930s and 1940s. That part of history is conveniently forgotten.

#132

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ORAM-usqhQ]

#133

Two wrongs don’t make a right, everyone else in the world is bad, evil and wrong- Hamas, Turkey, Russia, ok lets assume, I’m with you guys.

How can you , defend what Israelian army is doing, if you are against Israel doesn’t mean your anti-sematic- again claimed by some ( playing on the guilt of the western world for what they commited throughout history).

Lets take some history lessons,the land of the people of palestine was sacrificed for the attrocities done by the world on Jews, Palestine is an open air jail, do you expect people from there to love their neighbours- Egyptians, Jordanians or Israel, would it be unjustified (not saying its correct).

One should be against the killing of innocent people irrespective of their nationality, race, etc at personal level, instead of saying which country had what stand, which work on self interest.

#134

No country would tolerate rocket attacks. But if you were truly honest and unbiased, you would also ask what country on earth would tolerate a siege which stops basic supplies from coming, a 47 year old occupation and illegal settlements that are in violation of international law.

I mentioned earlier in the thread how the internet is changing how people view this conflict. We hear a lot about the views of extremists on the Palestinian side, but very rarely do we hear what extreme views are said on the Israeli side. Below are quotes from influential people in government, not your random Joe Blow walking the streets of Tel Aviv.

Eli Yishai was the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Internal Affairs during the last violent clash in 2012. He said during that conflict:: “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years.”[ “We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Yishai

Matan Vilnai, former minister for Home Front Defense, said the Palestinians could bring on themselves a “holocaust”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

Gilad Sharon, son of former Prime Minister, writing in the Jerusalem Post: "Israel needs to “flatten all of Gaza,” he goes on to say, “The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/18/gilad-sharon-israel-gaza-op-ed_n_2155932.html

Contrary to what people might believe, a 2 state solution is far from being unanimous thinking in Israel, especially those that currently form Bibi Netanyahu’s government. In fact, I have never been convinced that Bibi believed in a 2 state solution. His candor last year during a press conference did nothing to change my mind:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/

#135

^ FT: The fundamentals for any peace agreement needs to start with the unconditional cessation of violence. Not “we will stop launching rockets if you do x, y, z.” Attaching conditions sets an unacceptable precedent that you can gain concessions through terrorism. Remember my Ireland example: only after both sides put down arms and agreed to the Mitchell principles could a lasting peace be established. And while we are all uncertain of Israel’s position on a two state solution, we know with certainty that a core part of Hamas’s consistution is the elimination of Israel and Jews. That’s a problem. Further, consider that the situation in Gaza is only this dire because Egypt too closed their border, a fellow Arab state (similar to Jordan and the West Bank). Even Egypt know these terrorists can’t be trusted. Honestly I’m not convinced much progress can be made while Hamas exists, they are too extreme. Back to the Ireland example its like negotiating directly with the IRA. Cooler heads need to be in charge for this to work. Fatah has promise. Hopefully Gaza will accept them back.

#136

I don’t think there is any doubt that Bibi is against the two-state solution. The guy is a Likud hardman, presumably he’d want all of the land firmly under Israeli control.

#137

He’s but one man. The two-state solution has support amongst many Israelis. At the end of the day, most people just want to live in peace.

#138

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

#139

Lol, well said.

Well put and just to add during the foundation of Israel, jewish militias precisely attacked arab villages and instilled fear among the local populace leading to the Arab exodus which sparked of the '48 war.

Amen, while some puppets continue to repeat the same phrase ‘Israel wants peace’ and ‘Hamas are firing rockets’ they quickly forget that when Arafat surrendered and Palesteniens laid down their weapons Israel went after them with such blood chilling efficiency. They were clever about it for sure and western media chooses it’s words carefully but like I said you can never hide the truth.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre.html

At this point Hamas were still a social welfare organization.

This is what a country that prides itself as the leader of human rights had to say

Fat Sam, leader of human rightly apparently as usual looked away.

The man responsible for all of this was Ariel Sharon. He went on the become the Israeli prime minister.

You want hardline palesteniens to surrender their rockets after that? After their sisters got raped and their brothers beheaded when they were about to do it? The israelis were clever about it, they didn’t pull the trigger but they mobilized lebanese christians, led them to the refugee camp, surrounded the refugee camp with flares and watched as their allies went on a brutal killing spree.

As the western world continues to look away nothing will change. 80% odd of the worlds population stands with the palestine people for the creation of a free palestine. One vote, one voice - these are the structural building blocks of a truly democratic world.

Make it happen.

#140

Isildur (What an apt name!),

First, lets forget everything before the establishment of State of Israel. Why? Because you can make arguments like that about any colonies. Yes, Jews fought against British rule to achieve independence, but so did Americans.

In the end, the only thing that matters is the desire or, in legal terms, intent of parties to have peace. Israel wants peace, Hamas does not. Israel supports its citizen and values human lives, Hamas does not.

Creation of Palestine state is not an option, until they will accept existance of Israel.

Also, we were very close to two state solution, but Araft himself rejected it, as he couldnt see sharing Jerusalem with Israel.