http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704608104575219430378257618.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTWhatsNews " Mr. Papandreou said the country has agreed to fresh deficit-cutting measures, which were pushed for by the IMF. They include additional cuts to public-sector wages. He said Greek parliamentarians should set an example and forgo their “13th month” and “14th month” bonuses—many Greek public servants get paid 14 months’ salary in a year. Mr. Papandreou said there wouldn’t be a forced cutting of private-sector wages. … “Lots of people didn’t think these measures would be as harsh–but after hearing late yesterday what is being slated–a lot of them lost their sleep and are now in shock,” Marios, a 35-year-old bank employee who asked that his last name not be used, said on Friday. “How is any of this my fault and why should my bonus salaries be cut? I am seriously thinking of going overseas.” " I do not understand what Greece has to be outraged about - their public sector is so huge and they _demand_ not to lose a dime while their country is ridden with debt largely due to the size of their public sector. Most of them do not even pay their taxes in the private sector where do they think this money comes from? Not to be cynical, just my 2 cents
Well the bankers basically f’d Greece over and they have a huge budget deficit. They are going to have to cut public spending like crazy if they plan on making it through without defaulting. The only problem is all the lazy public employees are rioting and won’t take any pay cut. Greece is screwed. This will come to the US eventually with all our unions that have fat pensions and won’t stand for any cuts either. Interesting times that we live in…
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704608104575219430378257618.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection Greece’s Official Bailout Package
One of my closest friends is Greek–well, his dad is, but he spent every summer of his childhood in Greece. He and his father refer to Greece as “the jungle” as it is a corrupt, bureaucratic hell hole where it takes bribes and geological time to get anything done. Apparently, Greek labor is so incompetent that they hire out Germans to do anything important. They spend the entire month of August vacationing. It’s funny/sad how Greece, once the most formidable hyperpower of all time, the cradle of Western democracy, has turned into a bloated, bureaucratic, socialist, bankrupt welfare state. I was watching Equilibrium last night and it struck me that 100 years from now, the U.S. is likely to look like Greece today or like the absolute tyranny of the dictator in Equilibrium. Makes me not want to have kids.
It’s no use. You can’t change socialist sensibilities in one day. Greece will go back again to yawning deficits. I see a lot common between India and Greece - the most important being performing what’s necessary only when our backs are pushed against the wall.
Aghhhh IMF! They are sooo fuuuuuucccckkkked!
kkent Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > One of my closest friends is Greek–well, his dad > is, but he spent every summer of his childhood in > Greece. He and his father refer to Greece as “the > jungle” as it is a corrupt, bureaucratic hell hole > where it takes bribes and geological time to get > anything done. Apparently, Greek labor is so > incompetent that they hire out Germans to do > anything important. They spend the entire month of > August vacationing. > > It’s funny/sad how Greece, once the most > formidable hyperpower of all time, the cradle of > Western democracy, has turned into a bloated, > bureaucratic, socialist, bankrupt welfare state. I > was watching Equilibrium last night and it struck > me that 100 years from now, the U.S. is likely to > look like Greece today or like the absolute > tyranny of the dictator in Equilibrium. Makes me > not want to have kids. You got to love those “I have a friend who is from so and so and they tell me” posts. So representative. I guess if I meet an ultra liberal American one day in a coffee shop in Prague or an ultra liberal American co worker, I will take what they say as fact. Not saying Greece is not corrupt or a jungle, but the point could have been made without using the useless “I know so and so friend from so and so country and they say so and so”. Because it doesn’t make the point anymore valid. Just like a Russian using Micheal Moore’s comments to describe America.
What’s the point of your comment? I live in the United States and have no direct knowledge of how Greece operates and yet my friend, who is Greek and has spent a third of his life in Greece, does. Therefore, I am telling you what he has spoken to me. Would my post have been better if I had said that I have no direct knowledge of how Greece operates and therefore I will state nothing? The fact that Greece is bankrupt and nearly insolvent should tell you that there is basic validity to what he is saying. By the way, I gotta love those posts like yours that add…umm, zero to the discussion.
By the way, former trader, in case you were wondering, EVERY SINGLE assertion is verifiable fact: 1) Greece is rated as the single most corrupt nation in the 16-bloc EU. 2) Greece hired out the Germans to build its airport for the Olympics, as a single example, because they believed they weren’t competent enough to get the task done on time 3) It’s common knowledge that most Greeks take the entire month of August off to vacation on the islands So just as an FYI, this isn’t a “he said/she said” post–these are all statements of fact.
kkent Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > By the way, former trader, in case you were > wondering, EVERY SINGLE assertion is verifiable > fact: > > 1) Greece is rated as the single most corrupt > nation in the 16-bloc EU. > 2) Greece hired out the Germans to build its > airport for the Olympics, as a single example, > because they believed they weren’t competent > enough to get the task done on time > 3) It’s common knowledge that most Greeks take the > entire month of August off to vacation on the > islands > > So just as an FYI, this isn’t a “he said/she said” > post–these are all statements of fact. If these are facts, then so be it. I just find it useless when someone says they have a friend from Country X to make one’s point more valid. If Micheal Moore had a good friend in Greece, and they talked about the US, do you think the good friend in Greece will have a complete picture of the problems facing the US? The same if Glenn Beck was informing our friend in Greece. More closer to home, kkent and marcusphoenix would have completely different perspectives. Doesn’t mean anything if someone lives a quarter or all his life in a particular country. There is never consensus of why a country is facing trouble. Ask an entrepreneur or a union leader in Greece and I bet you get 2 different answers. Same with economists.
former trader Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > kkent Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > By the way, former trader, in case you were > > wondering, EVERY SINGLE assertion is verifiable > > fact: > > > > 1) Greece is rated as the single most corrupt > > nation in the 16-bloc EU. > > 2) Greece hired out the Germans to build its > > airport for the Olympics, as a single example, > > because they believed they weren’t competent > > enough to get the task done on time > > 3) It’s common knowledge that most Greeks take > the > > entire month of August off to vacation on the > > islands > > > > So just as an FYI, this isn’t a “he said/she > said” > > post–these are all statements of fact. > > If these are facts, then so be it. I just find it > useless when someone says they have a friend from > Country X to make one’s point more valid. If > Micheal Moore had a good friend in Greece, and > they talked about the US, do you think the good > friend in Greece will have a complete picture of > the problems facing the US? The same if Glenn > Beck was informing our friend in Greece. More > closer to home, kkent and marcusphoenix would have > completely different perspectives. Doesn’t mean > anything if someone lives a quarter or all his > life in a particular country. There is never > consensus of why a country is facing trouble. Ask > an entrepreneur or a union leader in Greece and I > bet you get 2 different answers. Same with > economists. Thank you for adding nothing to this conversation…
kkent Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > By the way, former trader, in case you were > wondering, EVERY SINGLE assertion is verifiable > fact: > 3) It’s common knowledge that most Greeks take the > entire month of August off to vacation on the > islands Awesome. In kkent’s world, a “verifiable fact” includes a vague, broadly defined generalization.
Greece is a third world country that happens to be in Europe. Greeks are as lazy as any one on the Mediterranean, they just got lucky and now it’s payback time. I say kick them out of the Euro-zone, let’s them devalue their currency to a rate that reflects their true worth. Something a-la-Argentina.
Just open your level 2 Economics text and flip to the chapter on GDP measurement where Greece receives an honourable mention. The text states that Greece loses an estimated 30% of its GDP measure in black market activity that is not included in GDP calculations (if I remember correctly). Greece is notoriously corrupt, it’s a joke. Everyone here in Europe knows Greece is a disaster in terms of corruption, closely trailed by Italy.
in general, the greeks are extremely delusional with their self-importance so their “outrage” is not surprising. i really cant think of any other nation that can be so worthless on many levels and at the same time so arrogant. there many other worthless nations of course, which have a healthy dose of humility due to their inferior status. not greece, dude - they think they are a world super-power cause they gave the world Plato or something. before you argue back, go talk to some greeks about politics and form an educated opinion. the moment they realize they need to get off their fat lazy butts and start earning what they think they derserve, the sooner they’ll take off the 3rd world rock-bottom they are at now. i don’t expect this happening in the forseeable future - it’s an issue with their mentality and perception of the world that will take years to change
Just amazes me they keep rioting. what do they want? debt forgiven? pay raises? Business as usual? This is representative of many regions in the world, where people think they can go on doing whatever they want, and expect 0 consequences. I really thought that they had to be kept in the EU, but my mind is changing real quick. If Greece does not want the help, Germany (and many other countries) should not be lending a hand. pun intended. mobius I think you nailed it.
keep in mind that it is only some of the people in Greek who are rioting on the street. Had a similar situation happened in American, would there be people rioting? Sure there would. But it does not represent the mainstream thinking of the people. I would rather think most peple in Greek are just despaired, realizing there is nothing they can do, but to suffer the upciming years of hardship.
Greece is the epitome of a failed welfare state. The unions and public sector “workers”–what an oxymoron–would rather riot and burn their own people to death, than take a pay cut. Every time a group strikes the government simply gives them a cash payout. They deserve everything they get.
can’t they fire them and get temps?
some of the stereotypes are true, general laziness, among other unproductive behaviours, typical of balkan, ex-communist influenced countries. a major reason for this laziness is the frustration with the corruption and no matter how much you work legally, you’ll never make as much as those who cheat the system day in day out. they definitely do have a misperception of work and life balance and this can probably be attributed to the union influence. my favourite excerpt from the past couple of week is: “These government measures are destroying my life,” said Panagiota Katsagani, a 25-year-old part-time school teacher who was marching in Athens on Tuesday. “I was planning my future, now I have to go back and live with my parents.” For some reason, a part-time teacher believes that she should make enough to live comfortably by herself. I know this is one person, and I know that we have many of these individuals in North America, but the reality is that no part-time teacher should ever expect to make enough to pay all expenses. part-time work means you can afford a part-time life. it is my perception that many greeks have this perception. all parliament has to do is enforce tax evasion laws and privatize a lot of the work currently run by government. the wages will adjust themselves from there. the problem is that because of IMF pressure, they are enacting austerity measures instead of asset sales. they are punishing the legal worker without pursuing the illegal worker. parliament will win over the general population once they start privatizing and charging white collar criminals. the problem is that they must satisfy foreign entities first and foremost. ps. there is no reason to get heated over someone using a “once-local” can a reference to help verify information taken off of cnn and wikipedia. its better to have talked to a greek to verify these things than to have not. for every greek you verify with, your level of confidence goes up. i know you don’t love kkent, former trader, but i know you know stats.