Haiti is a sovereign nation with $11B GDP per annum. US tax payers didn’t elect their representatives so that their taxes could go to Haiti…unless this has a benefit to Americans. Although, most Americans don’t pay any taxes so perhaps this is the reason for such generosity as it is other people’s money. The top 20% of earners earns half the income but pay 90% of the taxes. The US is often criticized for meddling in the affairs of other countries, even when it directly affects US interests. Meddling in the affairs of Haiti, even during a disaster, doesn’t even help Americans. So do we only help other countries when there is no benefit to Americans? We redistribute wealth in the US more than enough for my taste, now we get to do it across countries…from US tax payers to foreigners? There was the Marshall Plan that stabilized parts of Europe and prevented the USSR from entering a power vacuum. In this case, how much does the US have to gain? If Americans want to help Haiti, they can donate their own money. I think emergency support for Haiti is justified…but anything beyond that I am against. Why should we help Haiti rebuild when there are poor people all over the world that need help? Where does it stop? I am tired of being taxed. Doesn’t the US have its own problems to worry about…why take on other people’s? Let Haiti take care of itself. It is NOT the problem of the US.
The US federal budget deficit is 10% of TOTAL US GDP currently…that is not government spending…that is just the federal deficit alone.
markbot, I just did a search for your posts on AF. To summarise (and these are direct quotes from your posts): - China is a force for evil in the world. - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124485225707711561.html#articleTabs%3Darticle Thanks for f*cking up our bankruptcy laws Obama. - I don’t like french people…unless they prove themselves to me first. they can be “nice” but at the end of the day their heads of full of crap ideas - Re: Obama wants to regulate compensation at non-TARP banks. Wall Streeters who voted for him are fools. - mp, your argument is non sequitur. we r talking about the economy and how obama is a bad president and how we should pick a better one next time. - u can’t be economically liberal and be a fascist. u can be a socialist and fascist. Obama is the fascist. - i think americans should actually purposefully not buy chrysler, ford, and GM cars until the unions are dissolved. - Anthropogenic global warming hystery is a scheme to redistribute wealth. End of story. - I was in New Delhi for 1 month, 2 years ago. I plan never to go back. In fact, my perception of South Asians has been altered in a negative way by the trip. Seriously dude, there’s no place for you left-wing commies here at AF. Find another site that panders to your socialist, immigrant loving, soft on crime, high-taxing, FED loving BS.
Good thoughts, markbot. I agree.
^ also, I can agree with what markbot posted in this thread, but not other threads, necessarily.
markbot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Haiti is a sovereign nation with $11B GDP per > annum. US tax payers didn’t elect their > representatives so that their taxes could go to > Haiti…unless this has a benefit to Americans. > Although, most Americans don’t pay any taxes so > perhaps this is the reason for such generosity as > it is other people’s money. The top 20% of earners > earns half the income but pay 90% of the taxes. > > The US is often criticized for meddling in the > affairs of other countries, even when it directly > affects US interests. Meddling in the affairs of > Haiti, even during a disaster, doesn’t even help > Americans. So do we only help other countries when > there is no benefit to Americans? We redistribute > wealth in the US more than enough for my taste, > now we get to do it across countries…from US > tax payers to foreigners? > > There was the Marshall Plan that stabilized parts > of Europe and prevented the USSR from entering a > power vacuum. In this case, how much does the US > have to gain? > > If Americans want to help Haiti, they can donate > their own money. > > I think emergency support for Haiti is > justified…but anything beyond that I am > against. Why should we help Haiti rebuild when > there are poor people all over the world that need > help? Where does it stop? I am tired of being > taxed. Doesn’t the US have its own problems to > worry about…why take on other people’s? > > Let Haiti take care of itself. It is NOT the > problem of the US. How is Haiti “NOT a problem of the US” when : - The US occupied Haiti between 1915 and 1934 - The US have been involved in Haiti’s politics since Aristide came to power in 1991 - You have over a million Haitian (or of origin) living in the US? How do you think the US government would like millions or hundred thousands Haitians trying to get into Florida? Educating yourself and reading a history book or two would do you no harm, you know.
Is there any path to sustained economic self-sufficiency for Haiti? As much as I think Americans would like to help, I don’t know if we can really do anything to help other than short term medical, financial aid etc. I’d hate to see us give money to some cleptocracy only to see the people continue to suffer.
JustPass Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is there any path to sustained economic > self-sufficiency for Haiti? As much as I think > Americans would like to help, I don’t know if we > can really do anything to help other than short > term medical, financial aid etc. I’d hate to see > us give money to some cleptocracy only to see the > people continue to suffer. If there is a path, it is very long… All will depend on how the reconstruction effort is handled. Give money to the people you were giving it before and you’ll have the same outcome where the people suffer while the Aristides of the country make millions.
Honestly I’d care more, but I really have to blame the Haitians for not having oil. They should have thought ahead, had oil, and then we’d give a hoot.
^ seriously, shows complete lack of foresight.
phils23 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > - You have over a million Haitian (or of origin) > living in the US? Are we not a nation of immigrants? Such flawed logic phils23. I agree with markbot here.
US government should give exactly $0 of our tax dollars! Individuals can give as much as they want through charitable gifts and donations.
brianr Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > phils23 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > - You have over a million Haitian (or of > origin) > > living in the US? > > Are we not a nation of immigrants? Such flawed > logic phils23. > > I agree with markbot here. So what? Are you actually comparing Irish, Italian or Polish immigrants whose “countries” are thousand miles away to Haiti?
all i can say is that this thread is going to be deleted. i actually hope it gets to 200 posts before deletion, since i enjoy watching people fight.
I support short-term relief–as much as is needed. They are our hemispheric neighbors and this is a horrible human tragedy. However, the long-term aid appears to have been a waste. We gave $3 billion to Haiti since 1993. From what I have read, nearly all of it has been pocketed by the top 5% who live in compounds. At some point, a nation has to not cast its pearls at swine. But we also need to make sure that tens of thousands of Haitians don’t pour into Florida or other parts of the U.S. They are so uneducated and so far removed from normal society that I really don’t think they can offer America anything except more slums. So, we need a balance here–enough aid to keep Haitians from coming here. Give us Mexicans, give us Chileans, but please, God, don’t give us Haitians.
kkent Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I support short-term relief–as much as is needed. > They are our hemispheric neighbors and this is a > horrible human tragedy. However, the long-term aid > appears to have been a waste. We gave $3 billion > to Haiti since 1993. From what I have read, nearly > all of it has been pocketed by the top 5% who live > in compounds. At some point, a nation has to not > cast its pearls at swine. But we also need to make > sure that tens of thousands of Haitians don’t pour > into Florida or other parts of the U.S. They are > so uneducated and so far removed from normal > society that I really don’t think they can offer > America anything except more slums. So, we need a > balance here–enough aid to keep Haitians from > coming here. Give us Mexicans, give us Chileans, > but please, God, don’t give us Haitians. Quick question : Why would Chileans, of all people, come to the US? They have a better pension and health system overthere to begin with! As for Haitians, they usually take on jobs that Americans don’t want to take anyway.
I don’t know why they’d come here, but here in D.C., there are tons of them. My best friend just started dating one. That’s not really the point of the post though.
The short-term relief at the expense of taxpayers is more like an international protocol. After hurricane Katrina, Mexico and other LatAm countries sent troops and supplies to New Orleans for a couple of weeks.
JustPass Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is there any path to sustained economic > self-sufficiency for Haiti? As much as I think > Americans would like to help, I don’t know if we > can really do anything to help other than short > term medical, financial aid etc. I’d hate to see > us give money to some cleptocracy only to see the > people continue to suffer. the only chance haiti has for a sustained self-sufficiency is if they are paid back the $1+ billion they paid the french in the early 1800s for their freedom. in today’s francs/dollars its over $20 billion. this would be approx. 3 years GDP per person. that would be enough for economic sustainability. this is without considering the returns on infrastructure investment over the greatest period of growth in the history of mankind, mind you, so after considering that, they should receive > $100 billion in reparations. this would solve their problems. it just goes to show you that forcing a nation to pay extreme sums of money for unjustified reasons only creates a desparate environment; see: Haiti, Germany, future Iceland?
adavydov7 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > US government should give exactly $0 of our tax > dollars! Individuals can give as much as they want > through charitable gifts and donations. I agree with this in principle. Of course, the counterargument is that if we elect a certain political party into power, its history of making extraordinary charitable contributions to other countries is also implicit in the vote. So, for instance, if Democratic governments have historically pledged $X million to relieve each foreign natural disaster, then this is included in the policy package that voters choose, alongside healthcare, fiscal policy, etc.