So it seems like there’s no real consensus on whether it’s better to have an MBA from U o P vs not having an MBA at all. needhelp and some others would potentially hire them, and iheartiheartmath wouldn’t- even if he/she were the best candidate. I think if you can pass all 3 levels of the CFA exam (which I haven’t yet, I’m only done 1), you’ve proven that you are just as capable of learning and applying knowledge as someone from a top school. I am, however, concerned about the reputation of U o P, because if I run into the wrong hiring manager, I’m screwed…with or without the CFA designation. Then again, I don’t know how impressed someone like iheartiheartmath would be with an undergrad or MBA from an average school either, so I’d probably not get that job anyway (no sweat off my sack). And I think I’d rather work for needhelp than iheartiheartmath anyway!
needhelp’s opinions might change if he actually lead the hiring process. i agree with IHIHM that reputation is everything. if some guy from UofP ended up stealing from you or your clients, you’d say, i should have seen it coming, what was i thinking, haha. online degrees are not real. thats what everyone has to realize. its not what you studied, but how the process shaped you. most people’s UG experience defines who they are for the rest of their life. most people’s Grad experience defines how they will THINK for the rest of their life. the content of an online mba is not intense enough to shape anyone. look how the cfa shapes us… if pass rates were 95%, we wouldn’t change as a person but because all we have is ourselves vs. 60% of the expected failing population on every test, you take it seriously and the stress it puts on you shapes who you are.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > most people’s UG > experience defines who they are for the rest of > their life. most people’s Grad experience defines > how they will THINK for the rest of their life. > the content of an online mba is not intense enough > to shape anyone. look how the cfa shapes us… if > pass rates were 95%, we wouldn’t change as a > person but because all we have is ourselves vs. > 60% of the expected failing population on every > test, you take it seriously and the stress it puts > on you shapes who you are. +1 Good call Matty …
Oh i didnt know u of P was online. if thats the case, i will have to do more background checking before i hire someone from there.
any school that offers a course titled Doctor of Philosophy in Nursing is ridiculous.
Wikipedia exert on UofP Controversy University of Phoenix has had legal and regulatory controversies as a result of its student recruitment practices and accelerated academic schedule. There has also been concern expressed by former students, employees and academics that in its quest for higher profits the university has compromised academic quality.[17][18][43] A 2003 federal whistle-blower/false claims lawsuit, filed by two former UPX admission counselors, alleged the university improperly obtained hundreds of millions of dollars in financial aid by paying its admission counselors solely based on the number of students they enrolled in violation of the Higher Education Act.[17][50][43][51][52] The school counters that the lawsuit is a legal manipulation by two former university employees over a matter previously resolved with the U.S. Department of Education,[53] however the Department does not share that view.[54] UPX’s position was rejected by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in its 2006 published opinion, which reversed the Eastern California U.S. District Court’s 2004 decision dismissing the lawsuit.[55][56] The lawsuit is now set for trial on March 9, 2010.[57] In 2004, as a result of the filing of the false claims lawsuit, the Department of Education performed a program review and alleged that UPX had violated Higher Education Act provisions that prohibit distributing financial incentives to admission representatives, had pressured its recruiters to enroll students and had concealed the practices from the Department.[58] UPX disputed the findings but paid a record $9.8 million dollar fine as part of a settlement where it admitted no wrongdoing and was not required to return any financial aid funds.[59][60][61][62] UPX’s President states that though recruiters are paid a commission based on the number of students enrolled, their compensation is not based solely on that criteria, which makes the practice legal.[18] In January 2008, the university’s parent company, Apollo Group, Inc. was found guilty of misleading stockholders when it withheld the results of the 2004 Program Review cited above. A jury awarded $280 million to shareholders.[63][64] However, U.S. District Judge James Teilborg overturned the verdict in August 2008, ruling that though UPX “misled the market", investors failed to prove that they were damaged by UPX’s actions.[65][66] The plaintiffs have appealed the judges decision.[67] In 2000, government auditors found UPX did not meet conditions for including study group meetings as instructional hours thus their courses fell short of the minimum time required for federal aid programs. The university paid a $6 million fine as part of a settlement wherein they admitted no wrongdoing. However, in 2002, the Department of Education relaxed requirements covering instructional hours.[17][43][68] The U.S. Department of Education ordered the university to pay $650,000 for failing to promptly refund loans and grants for students who withdrew.[43] In December 2008, three former University of Phoenix students filed a class-action complaint against UPX alleging that when the students withdrew, UPX returned their entire loan money to the lender and then sought repayment from them.[69] The alleged motivation was to “artificially deflate the cohort default rates”, which impact a school’s eligibility to receive Title IV funding.[70][71] Apollo asserts that the students claim is that Apollo “improperly returned the entire amount of the students’ federal loan funds to the lender.”[72] On January 21, 2009, plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the lawsuit without prejudice to refiling.[73] The university has had various labor and discrimination issues. It paid $3.5 million to settle alleged violation of overtime compensation provision with the Department of Labor.[74][75] In November 2008 it agreed to pay $1.875 million to settle allegations by the EEOC for alleged religious discrimination favoring Mormon enrollment counselors.[76] In settling these matters, University of Phoenix did not admit any liability or wrongdoing.
I’m not really defending U o P…I think it is too easy and I pretty much regret going there, but just for the record I did go to an actual classroom every week. I wouldn’t have done it online. You know what’s funny, is the online classes are actually more expensive!
I agree with needhelp.
another thing i was considering: isn’t the CFA charter essentially the same thing as a University of Phoenix degree? that is not a swipe at the CFA program since i think it is awesome, but rather trying to keep my mind open. consider the following similarities: 1 - almost no barrier to entry 2 - low cost 3 - self-paced learning 4 - everyone graduates if they refuse to give up 5 - distance professors (in the form of schweser, stalla, etc.) i don’t think the problem is the education model itself, but rather: 1 - quality of students this is qualified by the fact that a lot of intelligent people just didn’t care or were unlucky at the necessary times in their lives. sure, the students at U of P might not be ivy material, but then again, some ivy league graduates aren’t either 2 - quality of instructors spots in academia are much much less than available phds, so it seems that what you have at U. of Phoenix are equivalent to adjunct professors. FYI: professors at brick and mortar institutions, even the top ones, do not get positions mainly for their teaching ability, but rather for their research. my mind is open.
1 - almost no barrier to entry 2 - low cost 3 - self-paced learning 4 - everyone graduates if they refuse to give up 5 - distance professors (in the form of schweser, stalla, etc.) These frivolous similarities means absolutely nothing. It’s like saying Michael Jordan is same as Shawn Bradley because they are both basketball players. It maybe true but people are still going to pick MJ way before they pick Shawn Bradley for their team.
true, MJ is better than SB, just like CFA charter is harder than a U. of P. degree. but SB can still contribute something and isn’t totally worthless.
basically, it’s not a binary judgment. gotta consider the context. OBVIOUSLY(!), phoenix is not HBS, but if HBS is 100 on a scale of 0-100, U. of P. isn’t 0, maybe 30 or 40.
1 - almost no barrier to entry without prior experience/education, it will be difficult to pass any level, whereas UofP classes can be passed by all. see dropout rates in UofP (35%) vs. dropout rates for the CFA program (80%) 2 - low cost cost has nothing to do with quality. not comparable when one is a self-study. 3 - self-paced learning if you’re not done reading and reviewing your 3500 pages of materials for a single 6 hour exam, you will fail, as opposed to a UofP anything. 4 - everyone graduates if they refuse to give up i’m assuming this is a typological error b/c i can’t understand it 5 - distance professors (in the form of schweser, stalla, etc.) true cfa candidates do not use these tools.
6 - alumni networks very few successful people will arise from UofP if UofP goes bankrupt, there will be no alumni nor no government support to bail it out. most schools of ANY reputation would be assisted.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 1 - almost no barrier to entry > > without prior experience/education, it will be > difficult to pass any level, whereas UofP classes > can be passed by all. see dropout rates in UofP > (35%) vs. dropout rates for the CFA program (80%) that’s true about passing, but i’m just talking about barriers to entry. the barriers to entry for HBS are very very high in contrast. > 2 - low cost > > cost has nothing to do with quality. not > comparable when one is a self-study. i never referred to quality, i was just referring to cost. > 3 - self-paced learning > > if you’re not done reading and reviewing your 3500 > pages of materials for a single 6 hour exam, you > will fail, as opposed to a UofP anything. but it is still self-paced, no? > 4 - everyone graduates if they refuse to give up > > i’m assuming this is a typological error b/c i > can’t understand it look at some candidates who go give some levels 6 or 7 tries, eventually luck will let you get through (provided that you aren’t totally clueless) > 5 - distance professors (in the form of schweser, > stalla, etc.) > > true cfa candidates do not use these tools. so those who get the CFA charter and use schweser/stalla weren’t true candidates? i am not going to get a phoenix degree nor do i claim that it’s remotely equal to a CFA charter or HBS degree, i’m just trying to keep an open mind and brainstorming about the issue since i used to looked down on phoenix, probably more than ihihm, but no longer do look down on it. anyways, for a better analysis (since you like analysis, haha ), check out the Wilmott forums. they have some pretty in-depth discussions and analysis.
haha. yes, those who use stalla or schweser are true candidates i just like to boast that i spent a few thousand less to get the same credentials. i will agree with you that someone who took 10+ attempts to pass all 3 exams is likely UofP material. someone who went 3/3, 3/4 or 3/5 is likely not. this gets into the debate whether those who went 3/3 are generally smarter or not. its a difficult to not make that conclusion using a sizeable population. also, using the same justification above, you could say that a UG anywhere is self-paced. barriers to entry and rigor of program are two things which make something worthwhile and reputable. the cfa has limited barriers to entry and moderate rigor. uofp has zero for both. the cfa is not a harvard mba, nor is it an mfin, but its surely better than a degree from a school that could very well be nonexistant in the next decade.
another thing to consider about 3/3 is: 1 - academic background: someone who has undergrad finance, MBA, MSF (that would each cost much more than the 3rd party prep) would find CFA a lot easier, probably even too easy. 2 - work experience: self explanatory 3 - luck: what are the topics covered? the smarter someone is and the more of 1 and 2 they have (note that i am treating them as separate things), the higher the probability of passing of course. anyways, there’s no reason anyone should go to phoenix, even if it’s the same quality education (which it is not) as a brick and mortar institution IF phoenix’s reputation is so low (whether justified or not).
A degree from U of P, like most things in life, needs to be considered in context. For most U of P graduates, it was most likely their best or only real option for getting their degree. Although I don’t know any U of P graduates, I suspect they realize that their education was not on par with Harvard, Princeton or Stanford and they don’t expect anyone else to think that either. Let’s be honest though, the graduates of Notre Dame, Florida, USC, Georgetown, etc. didn’t receive an education on par with the elite schools either. While I’m not equating a U of P degree with an ND degree, I don’t see anyone slamming the Golden Domers for shelling out more money for their degree than they would have shelled out for Harvard. I suspect the majority of ND or Georgetown grads couldn’t get into Harvard or Yale, so they took their best option which is what the U of P folks are doing. I give kudos to and have respect for anyone who makes the best out of their situation, whatever that situation might be.
Higgmond, I agree with you regarding giving kudos to people who take advantage of the best that is available to them. However, I actually don’t agree that the education one would get at Georgetown, USC, ND is necessarily inferior to that received at Harvard/Princeton/Stanford (and I attended one of those “more elite” schools. The name of my school has opened doors, that is true. However, half of my undergrad classes were taught by people who didn’t want to be teaching undergrads and had no interest in anyone whose IQ wasn’t over 200. Unless you were the next Doogie Howser, you didn’t mean jack to many of the profs. Many of whom could barely construct an English sentence. Again, though, it depends on your major, and the resources might be better in some disciplines (engineering, other sciences, CS) at the more elite schools. But I don’t think blanket statements apply here as to the quality of the actual education itself.
i agree with cfa2grunt