In some parts of the US, the public schools are burdened by the children of illegal immigrants. In other parts, crimes by illegal immigrants are imposing fears among the residents. The list goes on and on… So it’s perfectly understandable for hard hit states like Arizona to take some admirable, albeit tougher, actions. That said, do illegal immigrants contribute more in the US than they consume? Do they create more value to our society than they destroy? Your take?
yep, i think cpham should change his name
It is clear that illegals run local gardeners out of business. The Gardeners lobby should do something about this. And cpham should change his name.
I’m actually pretty pleased with the new Arizona statutes. In Japan the police have the authority to stop anyone at any time and the justice system actually works despite having a higher probability of Type 1 errors. It’s probably one of the reasons the violent crime rate there is about 1/100th that of the U.S… Criminals think they can do whatever they want in the U.S. without consequences and unfortunately that has been pretty much the reality.
This seems so silly. They should just force those who are here legally and might generate “reasonable suspicion” to wear proof of their right to be here. Yellow stars would do the trick.
A couple things trouble me about this subject: 1) Blaming the illegals too often gets muddled with blaming all immigrants and perpetuates the entitlement attitude among current citizens. I have done nothing to earn the rights and opportunities I have in this country other than have the good fortune to be born here. One of the founding principles of this country was that anyone can come here, work hard and succeed. I think we need to find ways to streamline/make it easier for immigrants to come here legally. Of course, with this we also need welfare reform to prevent people from mooching the system. 2) It is my understanding that the Arizona law allows local law enforcement to question the legality of anyone they please, meaning law-abiding, legal citizens can be harassed based on their looks. This strikes me as wrong. I understand the Federal Government’s failure to secure the border has led them to take this action but it still strikes me as a violation of rights. However, I do believe local law enforcement should have the ability/authority to check the immigration status of anyone caught/accused of committing a crime (aside from the illegal immigration crime) and deport them.
Behavioral/racial/psychological profiling and generalizations happen all the time, without it humans would be rendered helpless. It’s only in the U.S. that such a big deal is made about what are natural human processes.
Yeah, and lying, cheating, and stealing are natural human processes too. Why the heck do we try to prevent them?
A very imperfect analogy as those are usually associated with adverse outcomes for one party, the aforementioned in my prior post are often not; that’s an important distinction.
Legalize all illegal immigrant workers. Tax illegal immigrants at a higher rate. My guess is that illegal immigration will automatically reduce.
eikichionizuka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > A very imperfect analogy as those are usually > associated with adverse outcomes for one party, > the aforementioned in my prior post are often not; > that’s an important distinction. Huh? Behavioral/racial/psychological profiling and generalizations are not usually associated with adverse outcomes for one party? Thats news to me… BTW this is USA not Japan or China.
If you don’t understand that behavioral profiling and generalizations are made by humans literally hundreds of times per day(most of which are pretty benign as well I might add), you obviously don’t understand human psychology very well.
The thing is, I agree that profiling can be legitimate. I’m not against it in airports, for instance. But I have a choice whether to fly or not. I suppose I would have a choice whether or not to live in Arizona as well but it is a slippery slope. It is funny to me that we are becoming socialists, but it’s the republicans who are taking us there. If I’ve learned anything from movies, it’s that Nazis love to say: “Show me your papers”.
eikichionizuka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you don’t understand that behavioral profiling > and generalizations are made by humans literally > hundreds of times per day(most of which are pretty > benign as well I might add), you obviously don’t > understand human psychology very well. I am guessing you are Japanese…Japan is a extremely homogenous and xenophobic society. The same rules cannot apply to a ethinically diverse country like US.
In many, many places in the U.S., the crime rates and living conditions are comparable to that of third world countries. That is sickening and disgusting; why Americans continue to allow this, constantly making excuses as to why there isn’t a better way, I will never understand. While it is true that there are many great opportunities here, there are a lot of serious social issues that aren’t going to just get better on their own.
eikichionizuka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In many, many places in the U.S., the crime rates > and living conditions are comparable to that of > third world countries. That is sickening and > disgusting; why Americans continue to allow this I > will never understand. Comes with the extreme inequities in wealth in our system which has grown of late. I don’t agree that conditions are that bad as you are suggesting. People usually have enough food to eat; albeit not the healthiest. What do you propose we do?
I don’t really want to get into a lengthy discussion over it, but very briefly the most effective increases in social utility would come in improving the following areas; 1) improve the accountability of criminals thereby providing strong disincentives towards crime (harsher sentencing, increased police powers, greater probability of Type 1 errors-this would be outweighed by the improved quality of life for everyone else) 2) a greater emphasis on collectivism and responsibility in all aspects of our lives during our primary education 3) continued investment in improving areas vital to the nation’s economic and social infrastructure
As far as 1) is comncerned, we have the highest incarceration rates of any country; police already have a lot of authority and power; 2) and 3) everyone will scream that you are a “socialist”.
eikichionizuka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 1) improve the accountability of criminals thereby > providing strong disincentives towards crime > (harsher sentencing, increased police powers, > greater probability of Type 1 errors-this would be > outweighed by the improved quality of life for > everyone else) I really agree with Eikicho on this. The US is too lenient on criminals. That’s why our prisons are so overcrowded and too much tax payers money are spent on locking up, feeding and taking care of bad guys. Death penalty should be used in a quicker and more frequently fashion. It could take up to 20 yrs for someone to be executed from their sentence under the current systems. Too long, too expensive. Lastly, what’s up with whimpy lethal injection? If someone did something bad enough worth taking his/her life away, we should at least use firing squad, or better yet, just deep fry him/her… I am serious.
- criminal justice system is not effective as is despite whatever the incarceration rates may indicate - this could be remedied by a) harsher sentencing sooner before a criminal becomes a lifetime offender b) dealing harshly with crimes committed in prisons and not allowing the systems to be overrun by prison gangs ( have you seen any of the documentaries on US prisons?) 2) Not everyone will scream socialism, only those that vote Republican I think the greatest increases in utility would come from re-working the criminal justice system. As it is now, it is pretty much a failure. Exactly Alpha, the death penalty would in the long run, likely be employed less frequently as the youngest generation of criminals get the message(like in Japan) that crime will not be remedied by a two month to seven year sentence(average sentence for murder) in gang finishing school. Social changes like these take time but in the long run are necessary and worthwhile. I remember back in high school an acquaintance of mine had to go to court for GTA; the judge told him that he was sorry but that he would have to sentence him to at least a month in prison. The judge told my friend the burgeoning criminal, that the US justice system was SORRY for having to impose some small pittance of nominal justice. Incidentally that guy probably went on to participate in well over half a dozen gang motivated killings and is to this day a free man. Gotta love the U.S…