You are correct, but you want to be in the top of that range. A 615 would be near the bottom for most schools in the top 20, if not outside the range for top 7. When you lack strong work experience and have a poor performance in undergrad, the gmat is where you want to shine. Again, the range does change dramatically when comparing the full time program to the evening program at most top 20 schools. Just my 2 cents.
MBURFIEN, Are evening programs easier to get into??? I was not aware they existed. With evening programs, can you have the same experience as reg full-time? Are evening programs usually longer… more info por favor 
From what I have seen, the evening class profile has lower gmat scores and lower undergrad gpas than the full time program. The average age is usually higher with more work experience though. All of this can be found on any bschool’s website, just search for the class profile. I know that UoC’s evening program can be done in 30 months with 36 being normal compared to 21 for full time students. The big thing you lose out on with the evening program is the summer internship which most people use to help enter a new field.
I am hoping to apply to b-school within the next two years. Here’s what I’ve learned from reading a few books. While I believe a low GPA alone won’t completely deny you from an entrance into a top 20 MBA program, you need to make up in other areas like great experience, recommendation, or high GMAT score, etc. I also believe that the longer you’ve been out of undergrad (say 5-10 years instead of 2-3) the more heavily they weigh someone’s job experience as opposed to GPA. Regarding the GMAT score, I wouldn’t say 615 is a bad score. However, I strongly believe that you need to shoot for something higher, around 700, to give yourself a real shot at a top 20 program. One question that I couldn’t get a straight answer is regarding the CFA and MBA. Does anyone know if passing all three levels of your CFA exams will help you in any way of getting into an MBA program? I’ve heard from some that it may help you, but from others that it won’t help at all. Anyone know for sure?
That’s true, the evening program’s numbers don’t count towards the class rankings so the admission officers are under much less pressure to keep up their stats. I just graduated from Wisconsin’s EvMBA program and I know somebody who just graduated from the U of Washington. I thought it was a great experience, as did she, but if you’re hung up on the MBA is worthless unless it’s from the top X# school vibe then it’s probably not the place for you. The UW’s is a lock-step cohort program and takes 3 years to complete. The upside is of course that you’re working the whole time and making money and experience, plus most employers pay for at least a portion. The downside is that it’s much more expensive and every school’s focus on the day program as it drives the rankings. There’s also not much in the way of recruitment efforts since everybody already has a job and the school doesn’t want to p*ss of the companies that are footing the bill for their employees. In my experience it’s like most anything else, it’s what you make of it.
Guys,!!! Do you think international experience in finance is desirable for a top 20 MBA??? Can inter-exp offset a GMAT of 615?? I dont know… Wait… HOW HARD IS IT TO OBTAIN A 615 on the GMAT??? Can it be done with lots of studying???
615 really shouldnt be that hard if you study, set higher goals and aim for 700. Use the search function because some really smart people a few weeks ago were discussing all the gmat books books/tools they were using. I am not smart at all but I plan on studying a while for the gmat and ill be disappointed with anything under 700
Practically speaking, you CANNOT get IN with 615, it has to be above 700. You will realize that as time passes by. Instead of wasting your time here, asking about 5 years down the road, why don’t you concentrate on CFA Level 1 first.
If you were going to get a PhD in any business discipline, you would go straight to a PhD program and skip the MBA program entirely. A 615 is a bad score unless you have a ton of experience. I would say 650 is the floor for a top 20 business school. The GMAT isn’t hard at all, especially compared to CFA I.
And what about having some or all CFA levels completed at the time of the application? It won’t hurt I’m sure but will it help?
whats considered the cut off for “bad” gpa…I had a 3.2 from a crappy school
I think the answer is it depends. The school matters but so does the course of study, so a 3.2 in Astrophysics from a decent state school might well beat out a 3.9 Communications major from Yale (who’s probably a legacy anyways). They also like to see positive “trajectory” on the theory that your most recent performance is probably more predictive of your current self. My opinion is that you really need to focus on standing out, but in a genuine and subtle way. I can tell you I did officer interviews for Beta Gamma Sigma. They were all Wisconsin b-school undergrads, which is a very competitive undergrad program. They were 99% quants, white males, 3.9x GPA, co-chair of the investment society, yada, yada, yada. While they were all obviously not slouch students, all that really gets uninteresting after about the third one. So my point is while a 750 GMAT is a monster of a score and a 4.0 undergrad GPA is impressive, unless the person looking at it’s a newbie and you’re in the first 3 they’ve reviewed I wouldn’t expect them to bow at your feet and beg you to attend their school. By the same token I think a little ingenuity goes a long way and if executed well could get you into any program in the land. Focus on the essays if you’re not a super stud number-wise. In fact I met a guy at the MBA poker tourney in Vegas who told me that he got rejected from a number of considerably lesser ranked schools (because he wasn’t a stud number-wise) but in the process got really good at the essay writing and got into Harvard on the strength of his essays.
Great reply, thanks a bunch. Business School is still a few years off but it is good to know.
615 is only slightly above the 70th percentile. It is very doable of you put forth the effort.
I hear it will not help… Let’s say you have completed CFA III, but have been working at McDs since you graduated from college (3 years ago). You have a 700 gmat, management exp from a local McDs, and a 3.0 GPA from a top 50 undergrad + a killer essay. If this is your entire portfolio… i think your acceptance will depend on what the board is feeling that day. But if you had finance experience…which was magnified by your CFA… Then, you’re golden! What do you guys think??? This is a tough one.
I think that application would definitely stand out, but for all the wrong reasons. It’s incongruent, kind of like driving a Ferrari but living in your mom’s basement…it just ain’t right and something doesn’t add up. I don’t know that the finance experience makes you golden but the McDs scenario would make you remembered for all the wrong reasons. Think Monica Lewinski famous…
Hey everyone… I’m new to this forum… I hope I can learn a lot with you all and contribute just as much… I’m not an expert, but from what I understand, the CFA will show that you’ve challenged yourself outside of the scope of your job… a huge benefit for someone who is trying to compensate for a lower undergrad GPA. I think however the indirect consequences of earning the CFA designation (promotions/professional growth and development) will be the driving factor that will help you get into those highly ranked MBA programs. Essentially, its more of the application of the designation than the designation itself. At the same time, I’ve heard some schools ask applicants why they want an MBA since they already have the CFA designation. As both are completely different, it would be easy to come up with a solid answer, but make sure to have a good answer to that question ready or address it first in your application. Lastly, my recommendation for immediate action would be to take some courses to demonstrate that you have can perform at a high level academically (possibly outside of finance as it would just be overkill with the cfa). Private universities offer extension courses at a high price but you can show that you can hang at that level or you can take some less expensive ones at community colleges or state universities. Hope this helps.
I was misunderstood, of course I didn’t meant I’d be working at McDs. I plan to finish (or be about to) the CFA program before applying for an MBA. I’ve started working as a Quant and plan to stay in finance throughout that period of time. I think the CFA will prove valuable to get in just don’t know by how much.
I think you may need a solid dose of reality. The bottom line is that while anything is possible, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the recruiters and realise that they have seen hundreds of phenomenal applications each year, not to mention thousands of garbage ones as well. An effectively stringent selection process is a university’s first, and arguably most important, method in raising it’s status. The bottom line is that you must be able to set yourself apart with concrete achievements. While the CFAi candidate program may help to demonstrate academic competency, alone it is simply not enough. Top 20 MBA programs are searching for a trifecta consisting of 1) four to six years of exceptional work experience showcasing direction and leadership as well as real world (non-academic) competencies 2) academic achievement (usually showcased via undergrad gpa) and 3) level of mental apptitude and natural intellectual curiosity (possibly showcased via 700+ GMAT or miscellaneous achievements). An ideal candidate would either demonstrate all three, or adequately compensate for weakness in one category with exceptional strength in another. So if your GPA does truley blow, sit down and think deeply and honestly about what this will indicate to an admissions dean who has seen it all. Also, realize that if competing students worked four years to create that competitive advantage over you, it is not unreasonable to expect that it may take you a similar amount of time and effort to overcome your handicap. If you are willing to take the long hard road and put in the time and effort, then of course, the possibilty does exist, but the nature of the beast is that there are no magical quick fixes or anecdotes for your situation. Off the top of my head, I can think of several long term approaches that work to either remedy your weakness in category 2, or build strenghts in 1 and 3. One approach would be a masters in a related field from a lower ranked university in which you could attempt to remediate your GPA. Another approach would be to focus agressively on your current career and attempt to leverage 5-6 years of exceptional work experience down the road. These are examples, there are others, I am sure.
Black Swan… great advice!!! Would a CFA count as a masters from a lower ranked uni??? I mean… it’s like being in a masters program already, don’t you think?