krause- when i sat in my exit interview two months ago, my HR generalist asked me if there were any issues i had with the company that they could possibly rectify for the future. in the three years that i was at the bank, i was given lots of opportunity grow and develop skills and i am happy with my current post… the experiences there are what got me here. so i’m good. BUT my beef with the previous firm was that each time my role changed, usually progressing to a more analytical and “producing” position, my salary was not mentioned. i figured that since i was taking on more there should’ve been some sort of discussion around an increase or why there was no increase. during the exit interview i asked the generalist why this was… and she said that from the firm’s perspective, they are giving you the chance and the opportunity to do more of what you want to do and to develop your career. therefore, that in itself is the “increase” that you desire. which in many instances, i must agree, is probably priceless. i would be surprised if your new role wasn’t reflected in your package for next year… then, it would start being an issue. numi- i think people start looking now… or well maybe not now but late nov/december so that when payday comes around and the deposit has been secured, then they can resign and walk out the door. when i resigned in september many ppl were surprised because it was not expected, but i was told they were even more surprised given it was so late in the year…
adding to bchadwick’s point. companies are definitely aware of the bonus issue… probably starting july-ish of any given year. if they want you enough, they WILL buy you out of your bonus. so emphasis should be on selling yourself…
understood. my question was really whether or not managers would “expect” you to be looking this time of year (and try to catch you while you’re doing it), or if the sentiment is that most people are just chilling out and busting their chops at their current job in hopes of getting top bonus in january…in which case someone’s efforts to look around could go largely undetected?
misslee - so basically what the HR person was telling you is that by design (providing good growth opportunities) people will eventually leave because they aren’t paid enough. I thought the goal of HR was to attract and RETAIN talent, not be a training program to send developed talent out the door. I’ve worked in similar situations. I just don’t get it.
XSellSide, the reason for that is at some banks, they value cheap labor over anything else…and by forcing attrition, they can free up resources to hire a new crowd of eager-beavers without having to pay them that much, simply because of the apparent “prestige” of the firm. now, it would stand to reason that good associates and analysts ought to be retained, but under some business models, they generally feel that these folks are replaceable which is why they’ll attempt to force attrition either verbally (they tell you to go look elsewhere) or financially (they give you a slop bonus and you get upset and want to leave)
XSellSide Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > misslee - so basically what the HR person was > telling you is that by design (providing good > growth opportunities) people will eventually leave > because they aren’t paid enough. > > I thought the goal of HR was to attract and RETAIN > talent, not be a training program to send > developed talent out the door. > > I’ve worked in similar situations. I just don’t > get it. I don’t get it either. I had a job once where my manager kept telling me that I was doing a great job, etc. After a while, I asked him what it would take to move up. He said he might move me up in about 3-5 years. MIGHT. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? Needless to say, I left and got the promotion somewhere else. Manager was surprised (shocking!). I don’t understand why so many companies drive hardworking employees away, especially because they always complain loudly about the hiring process and associated costs. basically, i think anyone who is good is going to succeed one way or the other. why wouldn’t you want them to succeed at your company? if hardworking, smart, etc. people can’t succeed in a given situation, of course they are going to leave. duh.
I’m just wondering if my <1 year of service at my current job would be looked down upon once I start shopping around. I’m pretty sure I could explain the brief stay (lack of challenges, lack of fit blah blah blah). Thoughts?
btw…to reiterate…do managers “expect” you to be looking this time of year (and try to catch you while you’re doing it), or if the sentiment is that most people are just chilling out and busting their chops at their current job in hopes of getting top bonus in january…in which case someone’s efforts to look around could go largely undetected? just wondering when you guys think is the optimal time to look, taking into account the awareness of the managers as well as the potential competition from other candidates
I’m not convinced that a lot of managers are proactive enough to be aware that their subordinates are shopping around. From my experience, the vast majority of managers are reactive and only offer something after you have another job offer in your hand. That being said, to deal with the reactive managers I’ve seen former colleagues at different shops continually “whine” about their jobs to keep their managers on their toes ('this is not what i signed up for", “this is not challenging” etc. etc.), and more often than not they received something in return: promotion, private office, increased pay etc. etc.
In terms of the timing question, I have found jobs in September, May/June, May/June, and May/June. It’s just worked out that I’ve left companies near anniversaries. I’ve never really thought too much about what managers or other candidates might be thinking based on the month or season. I just go out and do the best I can for #1 - me.
Well, I don’t have a whole lot of hard data, but my gut sense from talking to folks is that a lot of people sit back and don’t aggressively job search right now, perhaps because they feel it might impinge upon any qualitative factors that determine bonuses. Also, a lot of people start looking after they’ve gotten p.o.-ed about their bonus and/or raise, so those people might not be in the mix of competitors yet until the numbers get announced. As a manager, you should always assume that your best people might be looking, and you should fear that your worst people might not be looking.
Krause - I think you could put me in the “whiner” category (not actual whining, of course!). And it’s worked to my advantage. Most of the people I’ve worked for have appreciated my nature. I’m the assertive type that doesn’t mince words and tells people up front that’s how I operate. “If you want a ‘yes man’, I’m not your guy.” The right manager will appreciate that honesty.
Finance firms and consulting firms like to push well-trained candidates out the door because it’s probably the best move they can do for future profits. I was told (by a consultant, so don’t know how much cred it carries) that in a relationship service business, they want to train the candidate, give them a good impression of the firm, then some how make sure they leave after a few years to pursue a job elsewhere. Since the original firm had the leverage to recruit the best candidate and gave it the best training, chances are this person who just left will probably rise to the top in whatever professional setting he/she excels in. When that person becomes CEO, guess which consulting firm/ibank he’s gonna hire for millions in fees? It made sense to me. You can keep a GREAT analyst that MIGHT become good at establishing professional contacts, or you can kick them out so they WILL become good business contact.
to be fair, xsellside- HR does try to retain you. i mean, they did try to retain me. ONCE i got that other offer and handed in my resignation, that is. but at that point it’s more about knowing what you want and i wanted out. and that is when they practically usher you off the floor…
XSellSide: I don’t necessarily mean “whine” but I am curious as to you “whining” techniques??
It’s not about complaining, whining, being a squeaky wheel, or what have you. It really just comes down to being assertive and communicating in a constructive and professional way with your bosses what is on your mind. You can’t get what you don’t ask for. Nobody likes a complainer, especially when they offer no solutions to what they are complaining about.
XSellSide Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In terms of the timing question, I have found jobs > in September, May/June, May/June, and May/June. > It’s just worked out that I’ve left companies near > anniversaries. > > I’ve never really thought too much about what > managers or other candidates might be thinking > based on the month or season. I just go out and do > the best I can for #1 - me. good idea. i guess if you’re not going to look out for yourself, it’s hard to count on anyone else to look out for you. gotta do what’s best for you because that’s how most of the people in this business roll. unless a person’s blatantly open about their job search, they’re probably more paranoid about concerns over being “discovered” by their managers than they need to be. (this is just based on my own observations, however…if anyone has other stories to tell, please share)
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- unless a person’s blatantly open > about their job search, they’re probably more > paranoid about concerns over being “discovered” by > their managers than they need to be. (this is just > based on my own observations, however…if anyone > has other stories to tell, please share) how paranoid do you think the average person is when looking for a new job? after all, the person holds the cards. i’m not suggesting that one flaunt their job search, but i would think it would be the manager(s) who would be more paranoid. at least, that’s how it is where i work. my boss is a “talker” so i know exactly how much they think it will cost to hire someone else, and what their estimated opp cost would be if i left the firm (dollar cost of lost productivity). it’s weird that they are this vocal about hiring costs, but then again, i dont think they are that smart anyway lol. it would be uncomfortable to work somewhere when they knew you were looking for a different job, but it’s not the end of the world. what are they going to do, fire you? that would be pretty dumb. i guess they could lean on you a little and make things uncomfortable, but it could go the other way too – they might try being a little nicer to you, give you better work, etc. to entice you to stay.
Just because you are not paranoid doesn’t mean they are not after you.
how do people normally deal with references in the place where they currently work???