Hey,
I’m curious of the ROCE of both poker and a bit of day trading. What’s easier to get involved with, make the most money, taking into account risk and skill.
I feel poker is best on a risk adjusted basis. Human behavior plays a large role in both, but I feel more so in day trading. With poker, you can actually calculate limited odds and informational asymmetry is less likely to occur. You might be pushed around by the guy with the most amount of chips, but less so than in the markets.
I’ve played poker for a living for several years and can talk for hours on end about the subject. However, one very attractive aspect the markets offer is scalability. In poker, as you move up in limits, the texture of the game changes and the overall quality of play improves (as a general rule). In trading, you can be a 10 lot or 50 lot trader and its not going to make much difference. Another point, if you’re in the UK and you play online, more than likely you’re playing against a bunch of other grinders using tracking software so they can classify your style of play and optimize their play against you. As this becomes more prevalent, the game online is even more of a challenge. You’ll find guys playing 8 tables of 2-4 online that are solid enough to play virtually any limit live bankroll permitting. If you are going to play poker seriously as a money making pursuit, you absolutely must have tracking software, mainly to be able to analyze your own play. I’d recommend PokerTracker but I’m sure there are several out there now.
More to your original question; here are some guidelines to consider;
For limit holdem, the typical bankroll should be 300-500 big bets (BB). At a live card room, the good player can win one BB/hr. Online, the goal is more like 2BB/100 hands so your hourly rate is dictated by the number of hands you play in an hour which you can determine by how many tables you’re willing to play at once.
For example, suppose you have a 10k bankroll. This is probably sufficient to play a typical 15-30 live. Your hourly rate in this game, assuming a solid winning player, should be between $25-$30 / hr. Suppose you commit 20hrs a week to playing, you’re lookin at roughly $2400/mo (live holdem will have high variance so this really isn’t very likely. More likely is you lose $3500 one month and win $8000 the next) Annualized that’s close to 30k /yr with just a 10k bankroll.
It is very important to note however that becoming a winning player to be able to reasonably expect these figures even apply is quite difficult and takes time.
did you beat the game?
Yes
who exactly does the term ‘grinder’ refer too?
can it refer to a LAG player.
when building at the begining do you recommend TAG or LAG?
When learning the game it’s best to start with a style that can be characterized as TAG, or Tight-Aggressive. The problem with LAG or Loose Aggressive is that it is a high variance style and can only be played profitably in certain games. In the average limit game, especially in the lower limits, LAG will not be a winning style.
The context I used grinder in above refers to a specific type of player found online that can be described as a TAG and plays 6+ tables at a time and is difficult to play against since they make few tactical errors.
the problem with grinding is it takes half the fun out of poker.it would be interesting to know how the ‘sicko’s’ first started building a roll.
why’d you leave it in the end?
Dude, you have brains… this is what i like… The concepts taught in CFA are very general and the way you used, I loved it… I hope that I can also use CFA Concepts like this one day… P.S I seriously need to learn poker from You 
I appreciate the compliments. As far as the sicko’s, the thing is it matters whether were talking about NL tourneys, NL cash games or limit cash games. Theyre all the same ‘game’ but are as different as trading options vs stock vs forex. Many “sicko’s” you see on TV have made a name for themselves strictly playing NL Tourneys online, which requires a completely different style than a limit cash game. The best players in Limit cash games you’ve probably never heard of because theyre not usually on tv in the world series of poker.
To answer the question about why i quit, i havent quit. I just cant play online anymore since im in the US. There is a good card room about 30 mins away from here which you can find me in every so often. The only reason Im not in the card room every day is I got married in 2011, otherwise i probably would be.
i should clarify.
im speaking exclusively about NL cash and tourney. limit is non existent here.
i started LAG in both had massive swings up and down and decided to tighten up.im now the typical TAG player when it comes to cash and i think it’s possible the only way to maintain a steady upward curve.
but i still haven’t figured out whether to play loose or not in the begining of a tourney.any suggestions.
also,being completely self taught supersystem didn’t do it for me because i had already moved beyond all of it.any book really helped you in upping your game?
Supersystem definitely wouldnt be my first choice to anyone with any experience. I would highly recommend anything by 2+2 publishing. Specifically, I would order Harrington on hold’em vol. 1 and 2…and eventually vol 3 which is a workbook. I really respect his style of play. Also, pocketfives.com is an online forum frequented by many of the top online players, which is another great resource.
note*. harrington on hold em focuses exclusively on nl tourneys and addresses the issue of style at various stages of the tournament. One major consideration with regard to style is how big the blinds are. Early in a tournament, blinds are so small the risk reward is very large and suggests playing tight in the beginning and playing more hands as the blinds get bigger. Harringtons books address this specifically using what he calls the M-factor, the ratio of your current stack to how many orbits you can withstand without playing a hand. If you find that you like his style of teaching, you should then check out Harrington on cash games vol 1 and 2
It’s interesting that one of the most successful bond managers in the world gambled professionally.
“Gross briefly played blackjack professionally in Las Vegas, Nevada, and has said that he applies many of his gambling methods for spreading risk and calculating odds to his investment decisions.” Wikipedia
I absolutely believe it. There are several professional players on TV who were formerly on wall st. The parallels are never ending. In both cases its never really about knowing an outcome with certainty, but the probability of something and betting/investing accordingly.
with option spreading, you can calculate probabilities and have very complete risk information, so that kills the statistical poker hand odds argument. Option trading is more “sophisticated” than just going long 50 futures contracts and especially poker. Even if you trade stocks systematically with limits and stop loss orders you have much “bankroll” flexibility and bet sizing than poker allows. A pro trader is market making with very low spreads, basically commission free, and possibly getting a rebate. Even with some of the online cash back programs, poker players are paying a huge fee in the form of rake. Pro poker players especially online have this elitist attitude that they are smarter than everyone else. congratulations to them if they can make a living like that but ttading is much more interesting.
It depends on what type of game you specialize in. If you are talking Holdem I’d say don’t quite your day job. Every Tom Dick and Harry knows how to play the game and that is not where you make your money. I started in Stud H/L but the game dried up due to ESPN and everyone migrated to Holdem. You can still beat holdem games but Omaha H/L is where you still find plenty of fish. I’d specialize in Omaha and Razz and forget about Holdem because Holdem is for College Frat boys.
As an ex-pro poker player(2007-2010), I’d say:
Think about how long you think you can benefit from your poker skills. The thing is that you need to get seriously good at it before you start making money, that means climbing the low stake tables and building your bankroll until you can move up etc…
Personally it took me about 1.5 years. I’d say 6 months is probably the minimum (4GPA type)
For me it was not a big deal back then because I started at 16, but for you?
You don’t need to start at low stakes tables if you can put together a bankroll. Remember, he wants to go pro and going pro means paying bills with winnings. How could he do that at 3/6?