You’re so funny with the victimology. You know when these liberals were taking away your rights and abusing you, when they made you say happy holidays, and beat you with their recycle bags while throwing organic tofu against your door…they never took away your arms and legs. So you can move, relocate back to a conservative haven like the ozarks and enjoy all the personal freedom you want with all their economic opportunity.
No victim here, I’m proud where I came from. I ain’t bitch made like these weak men and feminist want all men to be.
I think the increase in suicide rates has more to do with economic inequality and deterioration of societal cohesion, rather than people being increasingly unable to man up and face their issues. More people today probably perceive themselves as failures or face financial difficulties as income disparities widen. In addition, society is more politically divided now, and a lot of people probably experience a feeling of isolation or lack of place in the nation. From an objective perspective, yes, blue collar working people in the 1950s had a more difficult life than most people today. However, those 1950s people probably felt better about their role in society, since everyone around them had similar lifestyles that framed their self perception. This might also be why countries with flatter wealth distribution tend to report higher levels of life satisfaction in their populations.
Aside from this, the overall phenomenon that this buffalo guy describes should not be characterized as a decline in masculinity, but an increase in self centrism or narcissism. In other words, people care more about their self image, ego and self identity, rather than their role in supporting others. Maybe because Western society has not faced any major wars or imminently critical problem for decades, we feel less of a need to rely on and collaborate with others to address some collective goal. Instead of Nazis or communists, people with different ideologies in the country become enemies and cause society to fragment. Maybe social media also has a role in promoting narcissism, but it could also be just something that arose from the underlying issue.
what are then traditional feminine virtues brah - being loving, caring, affectionate, child-bearing, monogamous bedrock of the household, makes good lasagna? GTFO you and your boy Marcus Aurelius
Empathy, care-giving, compassion etc. are feminine virtues. why do you think women dominate professions like healthhcare, childcare, and teaching? Is it because of male oppression? Could it just be that they are drawn to it because it is in their nature? Curious why you are so triggered about that? Was some of this missing your childhood?
People bond over common struggles which has been largely missing since 9/11, when psychologists had reported a steep decline in suicides and depression (see Sebastian Junger’s book “Tribe”). I agree with you that income inequality and isolation are definitely key drivers. Social media has contributed greatly to the problem. 1950s people were not looking at insta photos of the rich and famous every day or reading the tweet rants every hour. Competitiveness is a masculine trait, why do you think guys bond over sports? What is happening in today’s society? Competition is removed from kids’ sports because everyone receives a participation trophy- everyone is special…no need to strive to be better because you are perfect as you are kids. I’d give a half dozen other examples of masculinity being removed from today’s society but this is too much to write on a phone at the moment.
When a group who where told their whole lives they were princesses (and some still believe they are) have to compete against a group who where told their whole lives to be tough, never cry, never complain, and it’s good to be ruthlessly competitive, you may have issues.
So, I think we’ve reached a nice point in the conversation where despite having many varied perspectives, we can all agree it’s a wide and nuanced topic and while we may all fail to agree on what constitutes masculinity and even toxic masculinity and which direction the causation arrow points, it’s definitely a worthwhile topic to ponder. In that regard, the psych organization was at least taking steps.
Separately, I also don’t get the butt hurt over Gillette. Is the pandering annoying? Absolutely. People are also super hyped up on politics and reading through all of this stuff as some sort of political nod (which it may be). But the message is hardly offensive and triggered people everywhere on both sides of the aisle need to take deep breaths and remind themselves its a razor and some form of an attempt at positive advertising.
You are using your tunnel-vision society norms to perpetuate limiting gender stereotypes - boys should play with trucks, girls should play with dolls. And as we all know, when a clown repeats some fake news several times some people may start to believe it without questioning - particularly if those people are kids and it’s coming from an authority figure like an adult. It is a problem because I can’t be next to my little girl all the time to explain to her that the conformist BS she hears from some bozo is crap, and I don’t want her to self-doubt her ability excel in a STEM discipline, for instance, because ‘it’s natural’ for her to be leveraging her ‘feminine virtues’ to go into childcare and teaching!
I agree with this and I’ve mentioned repeatedly that I have at least as many issues with how girls are indoctrinated today. From the day they’re born they’re indoctrinated into innocuous this, innocuous that, look pretty this, look pretty that and then when they’re in their teens they’re all f’d up and nobody can figure out why. I have a strict no princess policy in my house. One friend with similar aged daughters asked my daughter (four) why she didn’t think princesses were good and she said “Because princesses are selfish and only care about themselves and don’t want to help anybody like teachers help people and doctors help people and construction workers help people and crossing guards help people.” She has a thing about crossing guards. Anyhow, my friend was horrified but I was proud. Since she was probably one I’ve never raised her to cry when she gets hurt, I immediately stand her up and tell her to hold it in because it won’t help and breathe until it goes away, it still amazes people when she eats sh*t and gets up, takes ragged breaths it out then keeps going. Tough kid. So I hear you, it goes both ways.
Yeah, what Mobius Strip said. I’m basically in the same boat and raising daughters correctly to aspire to “masculine strong traits” (at least for me) has created through its inverse insights into the limits of the male gender types as well. She’s a little super hero in some ways, that demonstrates sometimes the benefits of the “masculine traits” but lived out for better results with “feminine” qualities. I don’t think people should aspire to be androgynous, but I think people don’t realize how much is left on the table with these restrictive boxes left over from a time when real men wore powdered white wigs.
^good edit with the strike-thru, I was gonna comment on that. I don’t have a problem if my girl likes princesses (and she does), but I don’t want her to like them cause she’s a girl, and all girls should do that and it’s a feminine thing to do. If she has a bruise and I tell her to be tough, it is not ‘tough like a boy’ - just tough. There are plenty of tough girls and sissy boys out there and I want her to know and remember this as much as possible, but it’s hard to control and remind her of this when she’s out with her friends. In the end, I may not disagree that much with this buffalo guy on the virtues that are worth emphasizing, but his gender-conformist labeling is abhorrent.
Yeah, agree with what you’re saying. I don’t tell her be X like a boy, just X. Because these are good traits. For the princess thing, she has grown to like them, but we limit them and I just explain to her up front (nicely) why. To me, there’s simply too much layered in messaging and implications and it builds. I don’t think they’re good role models and they ultimately enforce these stereotypes, it’s like a cultural pipeline that if she gets in the flow of it I think will be too tough to indoctrinate out. In the same way though, I’ve grow to realize I’d do similar parenting with the whole GI Joe meathead thing or whatever if I had boys. It’s a tough line and you try to manage around who she is, but you have to balance it. I remember when I was about 30 looking around at the office potbellies and thinking that it was hubris to think I wouldn’t wind up that way if I didn’t do something a little extreme, that prompted a lot of running. Now I feel that way with raising kids and that’s prompted a few hard lines. Part of the reason I have a flip phone is that my kids will not have smart phones until they’re 18 (at least that’s the current plan) and I want to lead by household example.
I have sons, and I just let them play with whatever. They’re super into balls, things that go (planes, helis, trucks, construction equipment), animals and some dolls. And poop. I view it as healthy. I also think it has little to do with stoic philosophical principals, as those are going to be largely taught through mistakes and by example, regardless of sex. They are always watching and they never sleep.
I’m a little torn on TV/smartphones. We have no TV on the first floor, so they rarely watch any at all. When they do, I definititely notice the addictive tendency of that medium. Maybe once or twice a month they’ll have a tablet/phone for half an hour to an hour so they don’t destroy the vehicle or building they’re currently occupying. I expect this will wane once they can read properly. OTOH, I want them to be familiar with technology and the massive level of tech-enabled learning available. It’s something that didn’t really exist during my youth so I don’t have a good model of how to handle it.
The main issue is that they constantly attempt to injure themselves, my wife and me. Even if they are reckless with themselves, I am trying to teach them empathy and understanding that adults aren’t invincible so they can stop WWE knee dropping onto my nuts. It’s a little ridiculous.
Yeah, that sounds fair. I don’t think there’s the same equivalent with boys in terms of the whole princess complex (life’s about looking pretty and finding a man! and most boys shows show the boy doing something useful). But yeah, I hear you in general, agree with what you’re saying. I never really bought into the whole “learning to use technology” thing as an excuse to give them gadgets (not meant as criticism agree with everything you said, just discussing). In reality those devices are easy to use and full functionality can be gained in about 5 minutes for kids (the only thing I’ve ever used my work ipad for is playing kids shows on airplanes for the kid), but outside of pretty much flying we don’t do devices. Even car rides, they either just draw on a notepad or we talk or listen to music.
Who knows?
I’ve been traveling so haven’t been on since last week and I just noticed I lost about 50 points. I guess I angered a neckbeard.
You are missing my point if you think that I am saying men should only act masculine and females should only act feminine. My beef is with the APA mislabeling traditional masculine traits as inherently toxic.
Edit: This is important because the APA is looked to as the authority on this stuff. When they get something wrong it ripples throughout the mental health and education systems, society is affected as a whole. Good initiative but bad judgment.
The feminist are trying to divide the nation. Even their name “feminist”, if they want equal rights, that’s not the name they should have picked. Look at the language they use “toxic masculinity” “mansplaining” “girl power” “ a women’s place is in the White House”
they’re the real sexists! They don’t want to be stereotyped but use stereotypes themselves!
i remember this skinny hot chick, then a year later, she has crazy muscles and it kind of grossed me out. i dunno! perhaps i shouldnt, but that is how i feel! i dont think i would mind if my daughter would play with cars and stuff, but for some reason i know i would regulate if my son would start playing with barbie dolls.
Nery, you know those fit guys with abs who post their selfies on Instagram? Do you think that is a masculine or unmasculine behavior?